“You realise that’s racist mum”

This reminds me of a film I saw when I did my teacher training many years ago - very interesting but somewhat controversial: www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gi2T0ZdKVc

lemongrove

Mirror mirror etc means fairest ( beautiful) it’s an old word and has nothing to do with skin colour.

Words have multiple connotations and frequently have a whole variety of meanings

When the Prince of Morocco says 'Bring me the fairest creature' in the Merchant of Venice, yes, he means most beautiful. BUT the most beautiful was also the lightest skin. Hence, the whitest woman.

So 'fair' in that context DOES also have connotations of skin colour.

Gosh, stirrings of my O Level, GagaJo

My memory of it is slightly different though.

Wasn't the Prince wanting to find a fair man in order to see who had the reddest blood?

Redhead56

I was sent a pm accusing me of stereotyping for daring to call myself a 'feisty redhead' when I was younger. I have spent my life being called 'foxy' or 'ginger' it's never offended me. I was always proud of my hair colouring not so much now I am a snowy vixen.

My sister was a redhead and not even remotely feisty so I don’t think you were stereotyping at all. She didn’t have the personality to cope with the teasing (bullying) that redheads seem to have to endure so she is very pleased to be snowy now.

I think that the world has gone bonkers

That too Grannygangan. To prove he was a brave man. But despite wanting to be accepted as equal to all himself, he still wanted the whitest wife possible. (And her money didn't hurt either.)

I do think there is an issue here with people thinking that its ok to use certain words and phrases because they don't think its offensive and because they wouldn't be offended by it. Surely its not up to the phrase user to decide whether or not somone else is hurt or offended by something. If that wasn't so them why do we have posting rules on here? I mean why shouldn't I call other posters anything I like?....because I don't find the words or phrases offensive and I wouldn't care if someone used them about me.

I am with you Espee on this. Sometimes we have to admit that what we said unthinking years ago is no longer o.k.
It is easy enough not to use an expression if it can cause hurt to someone else, why insist on carrying on.

I once complimented a friend's daughter on her gorgeous red hair. Only to be told it wasn't red, but strawberry blond.

Hair was red. AND stunning. Long, thick and copper coloured. Gleamed like molten metal, in the sun.

Re OP: I get irritated by some of what I see as over sensitive woke whinging, but I think it’s good to question some casual everyday comments as we are doing with ‘blue eyed boy’ in these posts.

GagaJo

I once complimented a friend's daughter on her gorgeous red hair. Only to be told it wasn't red, but strawberry blond.

Hair was red. AND stunning. Long, thick and copper coloured. Gleamed like molten metal, in the sun.

I understand the strawberry blonde reaction......years of bullying and you don’t want any attention drawn to your daughter’s hair.

If someone is described as fair I would expect that to mean fair hair. I think the Snow White meaning is about beauty as it is an old story and old film. Anyway Snow White has dark hair. I don't believe that it is possible to change descriptions of colour - black, white, yellow, red, purple etc and words that contain colour in every single language in the world in case they offend anyone. Similarly being castigated for saying girl, boy, man, woman in case it offends someone is a step too far for me - someone has lost their job about this just for being friendly.

It's the sort of thing I would say, without realising. And would appreciate my sons pulling me up on it.

Great post vegansrock. Having several friends who spent their whole life straightening their hair, at huge cost, and also bleaching their skin - again huge cost, both financial and health related (toxic products)- due to being bullied about it in school and beyond, I believe we should all be careful about the hidden language of the words we use.

Tea3 I was very shy but grew up in a big family and was not bullied.as I said I was called Foxy/ Ginger I like being different! I brought my son (same hair colour) up to ignore comments my GD s are same colour too.

I had a student with fabulous red hair too. Multi-tonal. Deep red in places, gold in others. It was long and thick. I loved her hair and was very envious. Yes, she was bullied for it and we had many, many chats about the losers who bullied her.

She now has alopecia and would love nothing more than to have her hair back.

GagaJo

That too Grannygangan. To prove he was a brave man. But despite wanting to be accepted as equal to all himself, he still wanted the whitest wife possible. (And her money didn't hurt either.)

Very true, GagaJo.

It's all coming back to me now!

As for blue eyed boy, a couple of my grandchildren are mixed race and have blue eyes. It's quite common. So I'm not sure how that sits.

I also have been known to call my grandchildren little monkeys. White ones and mixed race.

My son in law, also says this sometimes.

I know that people now find this offensive.

However, in my eyes, (dark brown) I find that attitude offensive in itself! What are they implying?

vegansrock it’s an example of everyday language which sees “white” as pure, desirable and “black” as something to be avoided - there are numerous examples “whiter than white”, “ pure as the driven snow”. “black mark” “dark forces”, “black market” etc These are phrases that many of use use unthinkingly , and whilst they aren’t directly racist in any way, they nevertheless reinforce the beliefs that white is positive/ black negative.
Black is associated with night time and the forces of darkness, hence black magic. Nothing to do with race, the darkness is what brings out the evil forces. They are gone when the sun rises and daytime arrives. So black being negative and evil, and white being positive and good is correct in this sense. It is coincidental that black people have dark skin, but there is no racial connection whatsoever. Not unless people choose to associate black skin with everything in the world that is black.

People with different first languages can interpret the same word differently. A Spanish acquaintance travelled to Britain with her very blonde daughter ( a contrast to her dark-haired and eyed mother) On seeing the child, someone exclaimed "How fair she is!" Mother was very offended - in Spanish "fea" (pronounced like fair) means ugly.

Ilovecheese

I am with you Espee on this. Sometimes we have to admit that what we said unthinking years ago is no longer o.k.
It is easy enough not to use an expression if it can cause hurt to someone else, why insist on carrying on.

100% agree ilovecheese

It’s sexist and quite probably transphobic too.

Oopsadaisy1

Apparently ‘plantation shutters’ is also a no no.

i had never heard the term til i read it on here, GN, recently.
it immediately struck me as being highly offensive, and i was astonished that any producer/retailer would choose such a negative association for the name of a an item.
i think that goes to show that if you are used to something, you don't notice it.
so sometimes as OP says, we need to have things pointed out to us. just because we do not mean, or maybe have not realised, that something may be offensive or hurtful, that does not absolve it of causing pain to others.
and those others are now taking the confidence to say so.

I’m practising a song for our local folk club, ‘I know where I’m going”. One verse says:-
‘Some say he’s black, but I say he’s bonny,
The fairest of them all,
My handsome, winsome Johnny”
At the bottom of the page, the asterisked *black is explained as dour, ungracious.
This a very old, traditional song. Am I obliged to change the word?

Chestnut

vegansrock it’s an example of everyday language which sees “white” as pure, desirable and “black” as something to be avoided - there are numerous examples “whiter than white”, “ pure as the driven snow”. “black mark” “dark forces”, “black market” etc These are phrases that many of use use unthinkingly , and whilst they aren’t directly racist in any way, they nevertheless reinforce the beliefs that white is positive/ black negative.
Black is associated with night time and the forces of darkness, hence black magic. Nothing to do with race, the darkness is what brings out the evil forces. They are gone when the sun rises and daytime arrives. So black being negative and evil, and white being positive and good is correct in this sense. It is coincidental that black people have dark skin, but there is no racial connection whatsoever. Not unless people choose to associate black skin with everything in the world that is black.

But of course they're linked. We call people 'white' and 'black' specifically because of racial dominance. Because people aren't actually white and black, but are really various shakes of brown, from beige, up to walnut brown or darker.

In the same way language defines male & female in a patriarchal system, our language is heavily weighted against darker people in a white dominant system.

Listening to some music at a BBQ at DS’s home once, a record was played and DS asked me if I knew who the group was. I didn’t, but said they sounded ‘black’.

That was a no-no apparently, but I meant nothing offensive with my remark. I hardly dare open my mouth now.

vegansrock

Obviously blue eyed boy isn’t a directly racist term, but it’s an example of everyday language which sees “white” as pure, desirable and “black” as something to be avoided - there are numerous examples “whiter than white”, “ pure as the driven snow”. “black mark” “dark forces”, “black market” etc These are phrases that many of use use unthinkingly , and whilst they aren’t directly racist in any way, they nevertheless reinforce the beliefs that white is positive/ black negative. Surely in the light of our awareness that language can have an effect on unconscious bias, we maybe should give some thought as to the way we use such language.

Absolutely.