Poverty

Greatnan I suppose it depends whether devout catholics think everyone else should pay for their children and whether those who have to pay think it is fair.

I most definitely wouldn't enforce a family size at all, I think those who can afford it should have the family size they want but those who cannot should try to restirct their family to a size they can support and not think they have a right for the rest of the working population to suport them. That is the point really, why should those who contribute pay for the feckless?

I go back to my point about the size of the cake and would much rather give more to those who fall on hard times than those who are lazy. With the present system the money is not there to help these people. If, instead of this unenforceable cap on child benefit for those earning 50 - 60K we had a policy of not giving child benefit to people who have more than 2 children, which would be enforceable, we would see the number of children who were welfare dependent gradually decrease. Yes, I know some people would still keep having children, but not so many. It would have to be announced 9 months in advance and those already receiving the benefit would continue but not get additional benefit for more shildren.

This is not an ideal solution but what solution is ideal? We must find some way of prioritising where support goes in fairness to those who are paying for it.

Alison, just to clarify - no, I didn't think your comments were directed at anyone personally! That's the trouble with forum posts, you can't necessarily get the emphasis across - my meaning was that I, myself, certainly understood your point!

Thanks Anagram sometimes I do feel that a few posts on GN do seem personal and I just dont' want anyone to take offence at mine as they are only intended for an individual if I name them and then not meant to cause offence.

I do feel we are all entitled to our opinions although that will necessarily mean that we can't all agree!

I'm off now and don't know when I'll next get chance to log on.

greatnan forgive me for being dim but I don't understand what point you are making about the various different rates of unemployment. Please enlighten me.

It is easier for someone who loses their job in The Netherlands to get another job than it is for someone in the same situation in the UK
I know of people who have made over 200 job applications and the job centres in certain areas (such as Hull) simply do not have any jobs to offer.
This is not necessarily tied to education, experience or enthusiasm - if there are no jobs there are no jobs. There are thousands of graduates with good degrees, even master's degrees, who cannot find work. It is not possible for the unemployed to up sticks and go where the work is, because it is usually in areas of high rent. If the wage earner has to live away from home, there will be the additioal cost of board and lodgings and travel home to see the family.
I would suggest that the Dutch method would not work because people would simply have no means of support.

It is easy to find examples of people who do not want to work or who would find working gave them less income than being unemployed and of course some newspapers love to print stories of the feckless single mother or the family with many unemployed members
I don't believe these represent the reality of most unemployed people, who find it demeaning and depressing.

I believe child benefits should stop at two children, there are enough people in the world, seven billion, we can't keep breeding. It reminds me of the film Idiocracy sunsetgun.typepad.com/sunsetgun/2007/01/its_a_beautiful.html says it all really. I can never understand why some people who don't have the means have lots of children. One family in this area have four children, the eldest is four and the youngest is five months and they have a two bedroom house. The husband also has two children from another relationship and his current wife wants four more children. They are not well looked after, snotty noses, messy hair and dirty clothes. The husband works but the government in Australia pay what is called Family Tax Benefit. www.smh.com.au/national/public-service/houses-are-bad-welfare-not-kids-20120427-1xqmj.html?skin=text-only so they are able to keep having as many children as they please. It is the single parents in Australia who get less help, but are still the kicking posts. The very wealthy often pay a smaller percentage of tax but don't find the level of criticism aimed at them.

Faye I agree with you but I cannot agree that it is any better to be unemployed in the Netherlands than anywhere else. If you have lost your job it makes no difference to you how many people are in the same boat! I expect they have areas of high unemployment to. In my area it is about 2.5% so the whole of the UK is not in the sameboat.

Not everyone who loses their job is unable to move, my husband's job was redundant when he was 49 and we did precisely that. Yes, I agree that the really low paid cannot always move but some can, social housing can be exchanged for example. I am simply stating the case that one cannot generalise about all this. We would all agree that there are genuine cases of hardship so perhaps we could also agree that not eveyr case is genuine?

Over to you the ladies who have all the answers!

I don't pretend to have all the answers - I hope I have compassion for people who may find themselves in straitened circumstances for various reasons.
It has to be easier to find another job in a country with lower unemployment figures. Is that not evidently true? The more people who are chasing each job, the less likelihood there is that any individual person will get it.

It has to be easier to find a job if there is less unemployment in the area you live, regardless of the country you live in.

I believe we could learn a lot from the Dutch, they do not encourage dependance and reward hard work. Employers cannot just dismiss people as easily as they can here and in the current downturn a new employee can be taken on for as little as a month, then get an extension. This can go on until, I think, the 4th time after which the job becomes permanent.

A couple of years ago they reduced the tax paid when purchasing a property from 6% to 2% to give the economy a boost. It will go back up again this August. I think this would help here too.

If imigrants what to live in The Netherlands they are obliged to learn the language (not paid for by the state!) and to pass a difficult test to show they know enough about the culture and country. I know a test is required here for residency but it is apparently a lot easier. They welcome all cultures but expect people to integrate, we should too.

I don't think employers can dismiss people easily in this country either, Alison. That's one of the reasons small firms are reluctant to take on new staff, because if they turn out to be unsuitable for any reason, it's virtually impossible to dismiss them.

Anagram an employer can dismiss anyone at any time if they are not 'competent' in the UK. They have to go through a process, which is longer if they have been employed for more than a year, but it is fairly simple to do.

In this country it is also a lot easier to close down factories than it is in the rest of Europe which is why so many multinational companies do so and keep their factories in places like France which have much stricter employment laws.

Sorry, Alison, but I beg to differ. The process may be simple, as in verbal warnings, written warnings etc. etc., but it can be a minefield, and if the case goes before an Industrial Tribunal the employee usually wins and gets compensation to boot!

Sorry Anagram but I must disagree with you as this was part of my job and, if handled correctly, works even if it does go to an IT. So often an employee wins at an IT because the process was not done correctly!

As I said - it can be a minefield!

Oh dear - all this lot makes me glad I'm retired.

Unemployment was being discussed. i went back to work at 42 after about 8 years with my kids, and being a family day care Mum. It took forever to just get an interview, and I only got the bookkeeping job by pure chance. I happened to have 2 foreign languages, French and German, and the person who had translated all the foreign business letters had just retired. Language skills were not requested in the advert, but the boss saw my foreign references and realised he needed me.

Without that I'd probably never have got a job because of deep and nasty age prejudice in Australia. My languages were no use back then for jobs specifically in that field, as I wasn't yet qualified. Oh, and a touch of misogyny and racism adds to the misery of course - I'm a 'Pom'. I would have just given up in the end and gone off the job-seeker statistics.

Some people just can't get work even in the good times if their age, gender, race, shape or face doesn't fit. I'm intelligent, honest, respectable, presentable and hard working, but still couldn't find work. This is the situation all over the western world, right now.

And when people don't have jobs, or fear for their jobs, they don't spend, so you can see how it winds the economy down, and creates even more poverty. It isn't as if there's a queue for jobs, and you get your turn in the end. Some folks just never make it.