Can working women have it all?

At the nursery I mentioned, the staff are not full-time. They are paid by the hour (and are therefore not paid during the school holidays).

They have also had to spend at least one year becoming qualified as early years teachers.

And they look after other people's precious children. I have no doubt that cleaners work hard, but their jobs surely carry less responsibility.

Yes, but presumably we're talking full-time for the nursery staff. Cleaners usually work limited hours, and people are willing to pay that much for their services.

The more nursery staff are paid, the more the nursery will have to charge parents, so someone is always going to lose out.

Ana where I live in Cheshire, cleaners get £10 an hour!

£12 an hour seems pretty high, even for London, Grossi! I certainly wouldn't call it very poorly paid.

I don't think these discussions will ever end in any agreement that women can or should have it all. Personally I think wanting it all is a bit greedy and I didn't work outside the home until all my four children were at school.

But I think it is worth stressing that childminders and nursery staff are very poorly paid indeed (e.g. twelve pounds per hour for qualified staff working at an exclusive North London nursery).

More and more women want to leave their children in the care of others so isn't it time that the carers were properly rewarded for doing the most important job in the world?

I so agree with you gracesmum. It is wonderful that men are more hands-on now and also that it is seen as acceptable and not a cause for mockery from their mates; but how many men work in jobs that give them the scope to play the part they would like to in their children's lives? Only legislation can make the next move for them.

We were lucky in some ways in that my OH's shifts meant that he had a day off in the middle of the week - that was "Daddy day" and I used to organise my part-time work around that. It worked out that there was always one of us caring for them when they were little.

Only my youngest was cared for at times by someone other than one of us - and the person who came in from when she was about 3 was her best friend's Mum, so she had her friend to play with at our house two mornings a week - suited everyone.

I am very wary of nurseries - some of the young people working at these places leave a great deal to be desired. I visited my first GS's nursery once and it was a sterile environment - no child of mine would have been left there!!

Just a thought. We talk of women "having it all" and we know we mean career/children/loving relationship and so on. But do we also look at it from a man's perspective? Men of my DH's generation and earlier were brought up to be the breadwinner and even with a working wife, the bulk of the domestic responsibility fell on the wife, including childcare at least when the children were tiny. How many of us used to sneak out of bed in the middle of the night so that DH could have an uninterrupted night as he had to be in the office the next say? (I hope, not just me!)
The new generation of dads is much more hands-on and I am sure many of them would love the opportunity to be at home with their children particularly in the early months and years career and income permitting. We should look at what is happening in other countries - e.g. Sweden. I heard Jenni Murray on WH a few months ago talking about "parental leave" which not only can be shared between mum and dad, but must be, the proportion being left up to the individual. If parental leave is not claimed within a period (3 years??) it is forfeit. OK this is heavily subsidised by the state and therefore taxation, but is seen to be worth it not just for the sake of the family, but as being beneficial to the economy.
So can men have it all? Do they? Many feel they too are missing out.

Sorry, kitty, hadn't noticed our posts were so close together - yes, I've noticed I can post, see my post on the thread, then next time I look more posts have appeared before that post....very odd!

Not just me then Ella

Why are posts taking so long to appear?

While working women may or may not have it all, the children of Louise M are the ones who will surely miss out if their biological father lives in England.

It certainly appears that the children's father won't be having it all. I wonder how he feels about his children moving to America. Interesting how even in this day and age it is still the woman who feels she has to up sticks and follow the man wherever he goes. After all she's only an MP whereas he is someone big in the music business

I totally agree about encouraging flexible employment practices, Mishap.
The nurseries my grandaughters went to were excellent, but the one my grandson went to in Spain was dreadful (twelve babies with one teacher) and was quickly replaced by his Spanish grandmother.
I think it is all about good childcare, whatever form it takes. I had friends who were miserable and depressed at home with small children and their children would, in my opinion, have been better off in a good nursery. Some were much happier when their children were older, some loved the baby stage and couldn't let go of their children later on.
I think you have to look at what comes out the other end of childcare, not get fixated on an absolute right and wrong way of doing things.
It seems clear that Louise Mensch is suffering from not being in the same continent as her new husband, which is hardly surprising.

Sorry Anagram your post wasn't there when I did mine - is anyone else noticing missing threads and threads not catching up quickly enough?

I am not suggesting that working parents do not love their children!! I am sure that my DD loves hers with all her heart. But I see the cost to all the family in terms of the tension and stress engendered by two working parents.

I am not judging working mothers - most families cannot manage now with just one earner - but lamenting what they and their children and their partners miss because of the attitudes and employment practices that we currently have. It should be the norm that parents can take time out to look after their children without jeopardizing their career path.

What I am lamenting is what both children and parents miss when they have to make an all-or-nothing choice between parenting and a career.

The government needs to take the lead in changing social attitudes (particularly amongst employers) towards valuing parenthood as an important part of people's career paths, rather than a negative source of employment drop-out. It should be possible to both have a career and enjoy the vital early years of child care. Both should be valued equally.

And the problem of high housing costs needs to be addressed with urgency as a social problem that is forcing families into work decisions that they do not necessarily want.

I do believe that a child needs both parents around as much as possible in their early years (and I make no apology for that); but this should not mean that either parent need sacrifice their careers in the long term if we only had the relevant employment legislation (and supportive social attitudes) in place.

I have seen the results of poor nursery care - there is no substitute for Mum and Dad (or other consistent carer such as a grandparent). That cuddle from someone they love when they get home from school is without price. And tired parents dragging themselves in from work are in a poor position to provide attention and care. I have been watching this happen to my family and it is not a pretty sight. I would not wish this on anyone.

As I said, kittylester, her husband is the manager of Metallica.

bags The children are hers, not the present husband's.
Their father lives in England.

I suspect the children are hers and he is a rock star or producer. It sounds to me as though there has been an ultimatum. But I'm just being judgmental and reading between the lines!

No Dee, no help apart from a husband who shared my view that we could both have careers and bring up a family. No grandparents nearby either. I am reviewing my children as adults of forty and thirty-eight, I think the problems should have shown up by now?
My grandaughters were in full-time nursery and as I said earlier they are happy girls, doing well at school. It was a very good nursery.
I suppose I could write something like -"little ones stuck at home with a Mum bored out of her wits - can't be right can it?", but I wouldn't presume to judge.
It depends on the parent or carer. Stay-at-home Mums are pretty much a twentieth century construct actually, it certainly wasn't the way parenting was done in earlier centuries.

He's the manager of rock band Metallica. I suppose as they're based in the US he has no option.

I should add that my surprise at their considering living an ocean apart goes both ways. I don't think it's necessarily the case that Lousie should move rather than him. Depends on their circumstances.

Anyway, it looks as if Louise Mensch can't have it all, insofar as she can't be an MP in Britain when her husband lives in New York. Surprised they, as a couple, ever considered it, really. Are the children his as well?

Wow, Mamie, how wonderful, you obviously got it right...you should advise Louise Mencsch!! Perhaps you were very lucky - did you have help with the children whilst you were working? I salute all working mums - inc my own daughter-in-law - who teaches full-time but her husband manages to work from home some of the time, does the school run and cooks! We grandparents live locally so are able to help especially in an emergency which has happened. Give and take and co-operate I suppose but I still think it puts enormous physical and mental strain on the whole family...little ones aged 2 or 3 being dropped off at nursery at 8am?? Can't be right can it?
Of course, there will be material benefits and many children will love the 'extra treats', holidays whatever - like to review such families in 20/30 years time to see if any lasting effects.

My eldest brother is a GP, considering early retirement because he's shattered. I seem to remember there was a shortage of doctors when he trained too, and that it had something to do with medical schools insisting on keeping the numbers low. If that was the case, or if we are short of doctors for some other reason, then it looks to me as if we, as a society, are simply not prepared to pay for a sufficient number. And no, I don't believe that would be impossible. It's a question of priorities. We have had a lot of governments with not much commitment to the NHS nor to state schools.

Mishap, you said, "How awful to miss out on the landmark achievements; not to be beside them and support them and love them during those critical years."
I find it really quite sad to suggest that you can't love your children if you are not a full-time mother. I worked from when my youngest was two and I can assure you that it was perfectly possible to love them, support them and be there for "landmark achievements". I really don't see how anyone else is in a position to judge the relationship between a parent and a child from the outside.
I do find it interesting that it seems to be quite frequent for people to judge working mothers and implicitly to try and make them feel guilty, when parents who have worked don't seem to judge mothers who have chosen to stay at home half as often.
In my view it is about personal choice and the long-term view. I judge myself as a parent in terms of how successful, responsible and caring my children are as adults and by the fact that I have a close and loving relationship with them.
I do agree with what you say about making the workplace parent-friendly, though.