Can working women have it all?

So what do you suggest then granjura? That female junior doctors should make a decision not to have children? Unfortunately for my surgeon daughter that is the decision she has practically made and the reason why her younger sister [equally able but soon to be married]is training as a GP.How many teachers have to make a decision like this?

I started to put my view down on this thread earlier but my fingers were racing in all directions and I don't know what happened to the piece I started but now that I cannot find it I don't think I'll bother as I feel that most people supporting high-flyers who work full-time leaving the nanny to cope have such entrenched opinions that I wouldn't be able to compete.

I stayed at home until the first two went to school but was remarried and had number three when circumstances wouldn't permit me to be a full-time Mum.

Well, no-one can have it all - there are lots of compromises to be made.
My own view is that small children need a parent (either one) available to them during their pre-school years; and that parents need their children. How awful to miss out on the landmark achievements; not to be beside them and support them and love them during those critical years.

Three of my GC live in a two-parents-working scenario and it is a complete nightmare - especially just now when one of them is ill during school holidays.

Why would a parent want someone else to take over the care during the formative years? - we all have our own values and attitudes and I have watched the problems that have arisen with the nanny - who has very different cultural values and this is a problem.

The whole family is under tension and I worry often for my dear GC and for my DD who is totally wrecked with exhaustion...depression, anxiety, migraines etc.

What is needed is not to use this as an excuse not to educate women or to use their talents for the good of us all, but to make working practices more parent-friendly, so that spending time on the valuable task of parenting does not compromise anyone's career - male or female.

When mine were small I stayed at home with them when they were pre-school; then I worked part-time when they were old enough to cope with that; then I moved to full-time. There were some financial sacrifices, but it was a possible route then - now it is so much harder with housing costs so high.

Absolutely, I totally agreed. I spent 8 years as a full-time mum and free receptionist!

And yet- we do have an unprecedented shortage of doctors and other health professionals currently, coming to a peak in a couple of years- and so many of those being trained (at huge cost to the country)- having no intention of working at all, or working part-time, leaving an enormous gap in the NHS, for instance - to the detriment of all of us. This was not the case in the 70s when many of us were mums.

I trained as a teacher as a mature student, when our youngest started school. But I must say I would never have considered this if I had no intention of teaching when I'd finished.

Well said Bags. I think I knew that I just wasn't that high powered either. I still had a career (still have actually) but I knew I could never be a high flyer and a mum. It just wasn't me.

I admire people who can do a demanding job as well as juggling family concerns, but I'm not that high-powered. I'm not ashamed to say that. Besides, I enjoyed being a full-time mum, in spite of (or perhaps because of) my tertiary education. Each to their own. We can't all be the same. There simply is not one right way to do things.

Yes, I do the "mercy dash" across the channel too, granjura!
I think I can say (and I don't want to sound smug because I'm not) that I had it "all" - career, children, relationship. I loved my career as teacher, adviser and school inspector (most of the time), we are still happily married after 43 years and our children are also in happy marriages, with good careers and lovely children. If I "missed out" I am not sure what it was I missed.

Sorry Bags, I didn't mean a 'waste' in this sense, nor that the job of mother is not as important. However, the NHS trains Doctors at huge cost- and all those trained count towards the number required for the NHS to run properly. if a large number then gives up work altogether - it leaves the NHS short, especially at a time when a huge number is coming up to retirement. of course education is never wasted- but if professionals trained at huge cost do not then practice said profession - it does leave the system short.

In the Asian community for instance, a large number train as doctors, opticians, dentists, etc - in order to secure a 'higher' marriage, but with no intention of ever working. And please, this is not a racist statement, but the reality.

Well said Bags

I disagree that it is a waste to train women (or men, for that matter) for professional jobs which they then do part-time so that they can raise their children themselves. Raising children is an important job that is also valuable to society at large when it is done well. I'm not advocating this for everyone, but I don't like to hear it decried or for people to say, ever, that higher education is a "waste". That is rot. Education is never wasted.

I once did that "mercy dash" 75 miles up the motorway to Birmingham when littlest fella was poorly at nursery and they couldn't reach DD or SIL (In London and Manchester respectively and incommunicado) leaving DH to keep trying DD so that she could arrange an appointment with GP for us and also to give permission to nursery to give LF Calpol. It turned out OK and SIL made it home in time for the GP appointment, but it was a wake-up call to both of them and just fortuitous that I was at home, mobile on and not halfway round a supermarket.
Plans B, C and D sometimes necessary.
I have my own horror story of the time I thought a neighbour was taking littlest DD aged 5 to school one Monday morning (middle D responsible for seeing her round to next door before catching her own school bus) as I left home early to get to my school in the next county, and neighbour had forgotten to tell me she was away for the weekend. DD was found wandering round the village green in tears as she "knew" she wasn't old enough to go to school by herself, "found" by a friend who was also local practice nurse and in uniform out walking her Rottweiler. DD didn't know the friend but recognised the dog! I got into such trouble from the school Head and had many a sleepless night as I realised the potential implications.

Job sharing can be a brilliant option. In my school, one of the teachers told the Head very early in her pregnancy that she wanted to come back on a job share, and his reply was an emphatic NO WAY! She could have fought it with the help of the Union and possible the Board of Governors- but she was so gutted by his response that she just gave up. A loss to the school as she found a job share in another school when baby was 6 months.

In my daughter's case, it just wouldn't have been an option. You can't be at the top of the game, managing huge projects with a team of people, and be part-time. So it was all or nothing for her- as she would have just hated not being involved in the decision making and management. It was HER choice, with OH, and I shall support them all the way- even though I do get concerned that she has so little or no 'ME' time, as she gives her all to her children and OH when she is not working.

We do not live locally, so can't support on a daily basis, but she knows that if she phones at 3 in the morning in an emergency, I'd be on the next plane over, and that when they are a bit older, they will be welcome to spend a lot of time here during holidays.

I decided in 1982 when pregnant with my first child that I couldn't have it all. It was the early days of women demanding that they should be able to have it all on equal terms with men (not that I think men have ever had it all, but that's with the benefit of 30 extra years of experience behind me). I was the first married woman in my workplace to return to work after having a baby, and the first person to apply to jobshare - a revolutionary new idea. I was very lucky to have my mum nearby, newly widowed and more than happy to support us with child care. Even so, I did not want to miss out on the precious years with my children and I worked part time until they were in their teens. I gave up all thoughts of promotion on the grounds that I would be doing half a job and not giving it my full attention as my focus was elsewhere. Others at the time did it differently but I don't regret my choice for a minute.

So no, I still don't think it's possible to have it all. I take my hat off to working parents like granjura's and Mamie's daughters and I agree with gracesmum that it is not usually the children that are the losers but more often the mum. I just wasn't willing to miss out to that extent.

Mamie - yes my daughter and OH do the same. Take it in turn to leave early and get back late. And it works very well - although it takes a lot of organising, compromising, and more. Why should the mother always be the one to drop their career (well most of the time. Easy enough to be the other way round if the father does not have a career, or is happy to drop it). Not easy either to go back to the same level after maternity leave. My daughter dropped a couple of places, but very soon 'caught up' and became a partner of her firm. Had she stayed at home for 5 years or more, she would have had NO chance at all to get back in ever, possibly, as the world she works in moves so fast.

Kittylester- yes I can see what you mean. But few people have the training, experience and the ability to do what she does. It is not as if, if she had dropped out, somebody could have just walked into her shoes.

For instance it takes a huge amount to train a Doctor. So many of the women then become GPs, and then give up or work a few hours a week or part-time- a huge waste of resources and training, and a huge loss for the NHS and us..
Same for nurses, dentists, teachers, etc, etc.

My daughter giving up her job would not have given an un-employed person a job, I am pretty sure. And she does employ a full-time properly trained NNEB nanny (at huge cost), and a cleaner + washing/ironing service, so her working does provide employment for others.

It sounds as if the answer is 'just about', with much juggling, planning, determination, energy reserves - and commitment to the cause!

My thoughts too, kitty I think it was Nicola Horlick who said you can have any 2 out of the 3 of children/career/relationship. That is not to decry those who manage but at a price - it may be the price of seeing a child take his/her first steps, of missing a parents' evening or a Nativity Play. The child is rarely the loser - it's more likely to be Mum.The price might also be not getting your job back after maternity leave or only at a lower level (it happens) or both parents cracking under the physical strain.
I think Allison Pearson's book is a stab at depicting the scenario, but most working mums would say it is far, far worse.
Another thought is for the working mum whose salary is an economic necessity, not where it can fund nannies or full time nursery.

And I worry that if someone is having it all, someone else isn't getting their fair share.

Yes indeed - and one woman's 'all' may be another's 'not enough'.

I suppose it depends how one defines 'all'

Bagshawe with an e - just Googled it!

Its Bagshaw nag

She certainly came across as intelligent, which is more than a lot of our MPs do! Yes, she writes under her maiden name of Louise Bagshot, I think.

Yes, I agree, reading between the lines, there are obviously other pressures which we don't know about. I am sure this is not a decision she has taken lightly. I was always impressed with her style and political stance. She has become a media darling really plus her writing ability - such alot going for her - no doubt she will be snapped in in the US media - do hope she will be happy and the children will thrive. Our loss.

And doesn't Louise have another very successful career as a novelist?