Family relationships webchat with Denise Knowles on Thurs 20th June 1-2pm

I'd like your advice regarding my MIL. She is 80, pretty fit and independent, drives etc. I feel for her because she has no money, very few friends and no real hobbies - and I hate myself for not being as accommodating as I think I should be. She means well but she isn't easy (DH feels the same if not more so and he didn't have a great childhood). We have tried doing nice things like taking her out but never get a thank you (we aren't doing it for thanks of course but how hard would it be to say the words? If she did and we felt that she really appreciated it we would do it more) What do I do?

My feeling is as a grandparent that you have to be stronger and more self disciplined than you ever were when you were bringing up your own children. If the parents are both working and the baby is at nursery you have to work at being a really positive presence and there's often so much that you don't know about your grandchild's daily life that you have to take on trust. When you think about the role of women: young, middle aged and old, it is probably as hard for women to establish equality in their relationships with their children as it was before women's liberation. Difficult relationships between the generations are compounded by sexism and ageism. Grans have to grow up but children grow up everywhere in their professional lives but not in their relationships with their parents.

It's as if you are a physical and emotional resource and the relationship can be destructive of your sense of who you are. It's not the love you give and receive but it's the sense that often your children persuade themselves that there's no need to communicate because that is a sign of dependency. It's like you give and are made to ask for the reciprocity you need: as if we collude as a society with making the grandparent relationship invisible: a necessary evil but if grandparents articulate a need for reciprocity our children feel overwhelmed at their own neediness. We're seen totally in terms of what we give and represent to them but if we want to go beyond that basic level of understanding it rocks the relationship.

I think our children lead very precarious lives and that they have enormous pressures to network, to attend, to be present in their own lives
and for a grandparent, familiarising yourself with unfamiliar and fugitive moments of reality 'being a grandparent', is full of pleasures, uncertainties and disappointments. Often you are in a space where you are like a naughty child yourself: different ways of seeing food, hygiene, the whole structure of their life that you want to nurture and build, the idea of equality between your child and their partner so they can both thrive but you have to realise that in a way most relationships are contested spaces due to the pressures our grown children have to negotiate.

Maybe what I realise is that we need to work towards insight beyond the minutiae of what we think we know into realising that we do have strong relationships that we shouldn't audit. We need to go beyond being angry and disappointed and irritable into thinking that we need to understand 'that we are already here' and we're not in competition with anyone except ourselves.

This opportunity has come at the right time for me. Son in Germany phoned last night in a bad way. He finally had to tell someone about his suspicions that his wife is having an affair with a senior guy at work. It's a classic scenario - very attractive high-flyer who uses her looks to get on. She's had 4 bosses at work fighting to have her in their team since she returned from maternity leave last year. She has been poached from her team to do 'project work' for a very senior guy (19 yrs older, divorced with a partner in Geneva) which involves going away overnight. He's created a position with her in mind & yesterday (a Sunday) he invited her for brunch to talk about her application - it took 3 hours & she claimed she got lost (with state of the art satnav!). He's also asked her to dinner later in the week jut prior to interviews. It all seems like an abuse of power never mind unfairness to other applicants. Son is a very trusting guy, probably too in awe of her, but little things in her behaviour suddenly reminded him of this happening with a previous girl-friend & although he is ashamed of doing so, saw some evidence on her mobile that his fears have substance. We've always had fears of this kind of scenario, especially since his appearance has been affected by an eye problem & we were worried he'd be seen as 'damaged goods'. On the surface we get on OK with her but her values are about things we regard as superficial (money, looks, appearance, doing anything to get what you want) & we saw how her birth mother operated when invited to her 3rd wedding in New Zealand earlier this year. We've always kept these concerns in the background hoping all would be well. Their son is now 20 mths old & we've noticed how often she feels OK about leaving him to do her own thing in addition to him being in full time nursery. Son does most of the housework & a lot of the childcare & like us & others, can be treated as a servant by her. We've always tried to support her as she had a horrid upbringing & at 5 yrs old had to choose between her mother & father (he won custody) when they divorced so she knows the impact on children. Son & DiL met in England but she was head-hunted & persuaded son to go to Germany for '2 years' where she grew up. He gave up job, friends etc to go, was out of work for a year while he learnt the language & is still quite reliant on her for friends etc which is why he feels very alone & confided in us. So how best to support him? He's worried about confronting the issue & the implications for the job she really wants (of course!) in case there's nothing in it but can't go on worrying all day & night. But I feel a truly trusting relationship ought to be able to cope with being up-front about anxieties. The one thing I want to tell him is to hurry up & get his son's British citizenship sorted. Apologies for length but it's too raw at present.

Elegran, I feel that as well. I would like to think DD would stand up to him and make the decision to speak to the school as a start, at least. I've tentatively asked how things are going, but am just met with a reply of, "Fine!" I'm taking this answer as meaning, "Don't want to talk about it".

I think I'd be worried about SiL too, Marelli. He seems to think that the problem can be sorted at home - probably by him - and has no idea that he is very likely a part of the problem, not the cure.
DD could do with some professional advice on how to continue, and on how to sort him out too. Something is way out of kilter in the dynamics, and can't be fixed from inside.

Hello Denise,
I don't have any actual issues with DD's MiL and FiL, apart from the fact that they have had a very strong influence with regards to the upbringing of DGD, who is now 13. DD went back to work only a few short months after the birth of DGD, their only child together, and although child-minders were carefully chosen, MiL played a large part in 'advising'. SiL is very close to his mother and bows to her knowledge at all times.
DGD's behaviour is very worrying. She's doing really well at school, but at home she screams at her mother and, although I really don't want to say this, seems to actively hate her, though adores her dad. The screaming and shouting that took place the other week resulted in the neighbours calling the police. DD wanted to speak to DGD's school about her behaviour at home, and is prepared for educational psychologists to perhaps become involved. However, SiL refuses for this to happen and says that they'll sort it out themselves without outside agencies becoming involved. He has told DGD that if her behaviour at home continues in this same vein, then she will be sent to live with her grandparents, and he means it. His parents have suggested that this happens, apparently. I've tried never to interfere, as it's their life, but if the other grandparents are preparing to take over parenting DGD, perhaps I should have tried to advise more. I'm really quite worried about DGD.

I am closer to my daughter and am able to make comments which are ,on the whole ,taken in the right spirit. With DinL there is a different relationship and a barrier to expressing any view at all. There is extra difficulty if the D in L is from a different culture . Add to that my son and his family live in California . Parenting there seems to be on another planet

Scream you are completely in the right. My daughter (the mummy in the case) makes the rules, although she's very good at asking for my advice ... and then making her own mind up on the basis of my advice and her own feelings. Which is fine: I get to put my view across, but she's the responsible parent. I'll admit - to other Gransnetters only - that the "no icecream" rule might be forgotten in the heat of excitement at the park when mummy isn't there, but generally I tend to uphold her rules on the grounds that her authority as parent trumps mine.

Stick to your guns and tell her that your word goes. And make darn sure that DH (her son, after all) does too - in fact, why can't he do the telling? Once she's earned her stripes back you could make a point of asking her advice now and again as a reward.

cinnamon, your MiL does sound over the top but, in our family, the rule is that grandparents are allowed to break the rules, within reason!

Scream, my MIL undermines me too, which is why they haven't looked after DS in the day before - only evenings when he's already asleep. She thinks I don't trust her and she's right. How do I get her to see that she needs to reassure me that she won't go against my parenting rules?

Minty-I hope Denise gives some answers to your question.
Denial of contact with both parents and grandparents is a violation of children's human rights .

Hello! My MIL has been awkward since day one. She very openly disregards my wishes when it comes to DS - if I say no to something, she'd brush it off and then continue to do it anyway. An example would be, it was FIL's birthday at the weekend, and DS had two slices of cake already, but MIL said she'll get him another slice. I said no, but she proceeded to regardless. I took half of it off his plate and she said "is mummy stealing your cake again?"

Another example: she gave him chocolate when she knows he's not allowed chocolate. Then after I put it away in my bag (DS wasn't even bothered), she decided to highlight the fact it was gone to DS and said "where's your chocolate? You need to stamp your feet and say mummy give me my chocolate now!"

DH has said I need to confront her and say I'm mummy, it's my rules. But I'm not sure I can do that without coming across mean. What do you suggest?

In the latest report from The Centre for Social Justice where it states that over one million children are growing up without Dads in their lives, and as a consequence children growing up without grandparents in their lives, does Denise feel this is a violation of children's human rights?

I agree with Manic. It would also be nice to hear some happy endings regarding grandparents who have been denied contact.

I'd love some advice about dealing with the Other Grandparents. I won't be able to join the webchat, unfortunately, because that's my day for babysitting.
I really hoped that I and my partner would get on with SiL's parents - and put their rudeness at our initial meeting down to their nerves (I was certainly nervous). But it's just got worse and worse. Now they can barely bring themselves to say "hello" at family affairs, and every time I tried to make conversation at the baby's naming day (having been briefed on good topics by my DD) they each gave the briefest of responses and walked away without so much as an "excuse me" (everyone else, including their friends and relatives, was happy to chat). They talk to my ex-husband and his partner, so it must be about me. Subsequently, at baby's first birthday, I ignored them and they seemed unconcerned - but this is clearly not good for DD and her family.
I get on pretty well with SiL, I think, so I'm not sure what to do next. SiL is very close to all his family, and DD gets on very well with them too. any advice appreciated.

Uhuh got one of those as a DiL myself. It is so hard to listen to someone moan about your son, especially when he treats her so nicely. She wants for nothing, he does practically everything the have 2 beautiful children but STILL she moans about him, her life etc. It makes my blood boil. Any advice anyone?

My daughter-in-law and I get on okay except that I find it hard to listen to her frequent negative comments and criticisms of my son. It seems as if that's her way. I only visit for a short time now and again, partly because of that, but still the criticism occurs either said to me about him, or direct to my son in front of me. Once when she was telling me he ought to go to counselling to try to change himself, I dared to suggest that both of them go together since the relationship involved two people, but she got really annoyed with me and said she'd done what she needed to, and he now it was his turn. And it was a ice cold angry atmosphere after that. It's really put me off trying to say anything to her. She has to have control. All things considered, is it best sometimes to just accept certain situations and keep quiet?

I hope that Denise may have some positive thoughts for the GNs who have the heartbreak of Denied Contact with their grandchildren.We don't keep banging on about it but the pain is always there -day and night.
Often as in our case the situation is driven by ex-daughter in law and her new husband.
My son and all the paternal family have for over 2 years been denied all contact with my only grandson (age 13)

My issue doesn't have to do with daughters in law, but rather with my own son. Who will not move out!!

My daughter moved out when she was 19, has now established herself and is happily living her life. Her brother (now 20) is another matter. He behaves like a complete teenager. His room is dark zone where no one else dares venture into it's so disgusting He is currently out of work though and says he is looking for a job but this takes time. He is filling in with doing jobs at the local pub which means late nights and very very long lie-ins. I waver between wanting to help him out and wanting to kick him out. He is my son. Losing his (first) job was a big disappointment not helped by the fact that his relationship with his girlfriend floundered at the same time. Obviously I'm not going to be too harsh on him but I really want him to understand that while he lives with us, he needs to pull his weight. We've discussed this to death and he just shrugs and nods but nothing changes. What do I do?

Hi Denise,

I wonder if you can advise me on this as I am at my wit's end.
My son had a rather messy split from my grandson's mum (they weren't married) and now she seems to think she can pick and choose who sees whom when. She is young and flighty and really quite unreasonable. I try and keep my cool and even though I'm dying to defend my son when she runs him down, I keep quiet just to keep the peace so I can see my grandson. What do you recommend I do in this situation? She's recently started seeing someone new (he also has kids - seems to be how it works these days) and I'm terrified of not being allowed to see my grandson. As it is, I have to be ready to drop anything at the drop of a hat when she calls to let me know I am allowed to see my grandson that weekend (we live 50 miles away).

This is usually so that she can go off and party. Sometimes though, if she has an argument with our son, she'll then call us and tell us the visit is cancelled - just to spite us (and him). This is often after we've gone to some lengths to rearrange our plans to fit in with her.

Overall she's a fairly decent mum to my grandson (she does love him, but she does love herself an awful lot too). He's five and impressionable though and I'm worried if we start taking a stand against her she's going to start badmouthing us to him and that could ruin our very good relationship? What do you suggest? She hasn't responded well to serious conversations we've tried to have with her. I don't want to bring in the law because I know the mother is usually favoured and we could end up worse off. I just don't know what to do!

My mother had a very difficult relationship with her mother-in-law which made her quite unhappy at times. It was only much later in life that they settled down to an uneasy truce. I had a wonderful mother-in-law and when my DS were born, I decided I would try to be like her if and when they married. I did not want to be like my grandmother, who resented another woman in her sons' lives and was quite manipulative in her relationships. Luckily, I didn't have to make an effort because both my daughters-in-law are great, quite different in personality, interests and outlook but very easy to get on with. They are both a great support to my DS. All four have demanding and difficult jobs and I admire the way they manage to keep work/life/marriage balance. I feel so fortunate!

My son-in-law is wonderful. My daughter has just flown back from England to New Zealand, to find a hot meal waiting, a clean house, and a pile of presents to welcome her home. He became stepfather to her four children, then aged from 3 to 12, when he was only 26 and they all adore him. His parents welcomed my daughter and her children and I was so happy because I had been the only grandparent to all my gc since they were born. They bought the house next door to my daughter and she was delighted as the children would just pop round and be entertained.
I have never felt any jealousy - love is limitless and the 'other gran' became a good friend. Sadly, she is now in a nursing home with advanced dementia.
I also have a grand-daughter-in-law, who is the mother of two of my great-grandchildren, and a grandson-in-law, who is the father of the other two. I love them both as they have made my grandchildren very happy.
On the other hand, I loathed my daughter's previous partner, who was twenty years her senior and did not support the family at all. I was so pleased when she married a man who was half his age, and a foot taller!
I never criticised him to my daughter though, as I knew she would feel obliged to take his part and I could have lost her. So, I gritted my teeth for many years until she saw through him.
My own in-laws were horrible bigots and it was so good to get rid of them when we were divorced.