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Fathers for Justice

(35 Posts)
Maniac Sat 15-Jun-13 15:25:42

I can understand the despair of the father who painted 'Help' on the Queen's portrait.
What outrageous actions might you consider to obtain contact with your children/grandchildren?

FlicketyB Sat 15-Jun-13 15:44:39

None, any would be counterproductive.

Nelliemoser Sat 15-Jun-13 15:52:28

That particular one will do him no good at all it is just a pointless act of vandalism. It actually makes him seem very unreasonable indeed.

As an estranged father who cannot get contact he really needs to be presenting himself as being a nice guy who is caring and not vindictive.

Quite rightly, the public never get to hear both sides of the situation with regard to an estranged couples full story.

harrigran Sat 15-Jun-13 18:48:07

I'm with Flickety anything outrageous would label you as irresponsible.

Minty Sun 16-Jun-13 13:55:40

Is it not irresponsible that the situation of children being denied contact has NOT improved in 20 years.
Is it not criminal damage when a child is denied their human right to a loving and meaningful relationship with BOTH parents.
I am not condoning this but I know that the public do not understand the reality and the total desperation felt by Dads /Mums and Grandparents who are denied contact.
How do you know that this Dad is not a 'nice guy?' Who only wants to be caring.
We are quick to judge, in something that we have no knowledge.

Nelliemoser Sun 16-Jun-13 14:42:52

Minty I can understand the desperation, but sometimes there are circumstances when the courts make a decision to stop any contact by a particular relative for very good child welfare reasons.

The reasons for such decisions are kept confidential.

It is astonishing how plain bloody minded some parents can be when it comes to child custody situations and they are the ones without any obvious child protection issues.

Most courts would not lightly take a decision to stop contact unless they have good grounds to do so.

However if one parent insists on defying a court order for contact by the other it can still be very difficult, expensive and time consuming to get that parent to comply.

Iam64 Mon 17-Jun-13 07:36:00

I agree, it's dreadful for children when their parents get locked into intransigent positions about contact arrangements. Children need to have positive relationships with their parents, grandparents and extended families. That view is held dear by the family court judges I worked with. As Nelliemoser said, some people can be "plain bloody minded" when it comes to the other parent. In some situations, mothers and children remain very fearful of the father who may have been violent/abused drugs/alcohol etc. I don't remember the percentage of parents denied contact in private law proceedings before the courts, but it is extremely low. Most parents resolve contact/residence matters without going to court. Many of those who sadly end up before the courts can be assisted in reaching agreement. I am aware of families where there has been domestic violence, drug/alcohol abuse, safeguarding issues etc, where contact arrangements have been put in place, sometimes making use of the (few) contact centres available or indirect contact like letters, video etc. I empathise with the distress caused when family relationships break down but as others have said, public displays like this one are unlikely to help resolve the contact problem. The children in the middle of this dreadful situation are likely to have been caused further distress. The tv programme some time ago, with Mat O'Connor, founder of F4J and other members of F4J, sadly confirmed the worry that some of these men have problems with violence/drugs/alcohol. I said some, not all.....

PRINTMISS Mon 17-Jun-13 09:01:04

I believe in some cases also, children have the right to decide whether they want contact with either parent, and their decision is honoured, so again we really need to know the whole story before agreeing or disagreeing with any actions taken by the one 'sinned against' (if that is the right expression).

Minty Mon 17-Jun-13 09:16:53

"I don't remember the percentage of parents denied contact in private law proceedings before the courts, but it is extremely low."

The reason that the true numbers are not known, as a barrister told us, is the majority don't go to court.
Sadly I think that the responses are the usual stereotypical reaction to this issue, of course there are SOME parents, be that Mums or Dads or Grandparents who should never have anything to do with their children/grandchildren, but 200 children per day are losing contact, that is fact.
It is obviously a very emotive subject but please don't go down the blame game road.
'In the best interest of the child,' is interesting, of course the view of the children must be heard, but have you as a child ever been a victim of Parental Alienation? I have.
To be told constantly that your Mum or Dad is a bad person and doesn't love you, eventually you believe it,, even though at a later time in life you discover the truth.
You have been lied to, and lost precious years, never to be replaced.

JessM Mon 17-Jun-13 09:21:18

I'm afraid that however desperate a father is, doing something like this makes me doubt his judgement and self control. It is true that there are some women who use their children as a weapon against their exes, who may have done little or nothing wrong.
It is also true that there are some dangerous exes out there. At the extreme end there was one recently in the news who killed both the children the first time he had access.
One of our local papers is very supportive of a man whose children were taken, by their mother, to her home in Africa. Just no way that the paper can know what lies behind this is there.

speck123 Mon 17-Jun-13 11:09:03

Of there is proven violence or mental instability on the part of the father that is one thing but if it is simple spite on the part of the mother that is something entirely different.

petallus Mon 17-Jun-13 14:24:59

Although if the father has left his wife and children for another woman, I can understand that it might be difficult for the mother to happily send children off to stay with the happy couple, at least initially.

whenim64 Mon 17-Jun-13 14:40:04

My son agreed with his ex that he would wait several months before introducing my grandson to his new partner, and he kept his word. They were introduced for a few moments on neutral ground, after he had been with his partner for 9 months. Ex was furious and caused such a commotion, then demanded that my son brought his partner round for her to be vetted. New partner refused to be treated like that, so they both said 'no, sorry, not in these circumstances, but if things improve we will invite you round later on.'

Gradually, my grandson was integrated with son's partner and her two delightful children from her previous marriage, and now they have a 4 month old baby. Grandson told his mum that new partner was 'really nice, I like her.'

Whilst all this was going on and my son was juggling new partner and son, cheeky ex met a man, moved him in after 6 weeks, then chucked him out 2 months later! Very confusing for my grandson, but what a hypocrite!

Maniac Tue 18-Jun-13 15:51:52

‘I can understand the desperation’ -
I doubt if anyone can possibly understand the desperation of estranged fathers denied contact unless they have been there.Some fathers have committed suicide.My son is a good man and has been a caring,loving father.His only son has been denied contact with him and all his family for over 2 years

‘ needs to be presenting himself as a nice guy who is caring and not vindictive’
Many dads have done that for years to no effect.

The courts are not stopping contact –that has already been done by the mother and stepfather.The courts are refusing to renew contact .
Being mild and reasonable cuts no ice at all especially in the face of false allegations from resident parent which are not challenged and father has no chance to refute.Children under duress can easily be persuaded that they don’t wish to see dad...

If you have sons and grandsons be very afraid.Unless the law changes you could in the future find yourself in this situation

I’m sure that the suffragettes were told to stay at home,be nice reasonable ladies and not to make outrageous protests.

janerowena Fri 21-Jun-13 13:35:53

Ok - deep breath - I had a violent Ex. I dreaded my daughter one day suffering at his hands, but I did let her go to him every weekend as he had never harmed her. It was so hard, I was so worried. Yes I knew he loved her and she loved him. Then he took her to Greece one year (three years after our separation) when she was 13 and she left her purse on the table of a bar that he had refused to leave until about 2am, he was very drunk (an alcoholic). She said that he had pinned her up against a wall by her throat (very Nigella) and she had been so afraid, stuck there in a country with no-one to turn to apart from his girlfriend, who resented her being with them anyway. She steered as clear of him as she could for the remaining two days, burst into our house when he brought her back without saying goodbye and I could tell from the way he slunk off that he had done something that he was ashamed of.

I reminded him that now she was 13, he couldn't force her to see him, it was up to her. She made excuses not to see him for a few weeks, gradually seeing him again but not quite as often. I let her call all the shots, despite him being a real pain in the neck and saying I should make her see him. I just felt, he is her real father, I don't want her blaming me in latter years for not staying in contact. So when my now husband and I decided that we had had enough of living close to him purely to enable her to see him easily, we gave her the choice to stay with him or come with us. She had so many friends in the area, and other family, that I think we were all surprised when she chose us. He kidnapped her for a few days, blaming me. It was entirely her own choice.

I put myself through all that for her, He was awful when he came round, frequenntly didn't bring her back when he should have done, sometimes days late, was abusive and a stalker and I would never put myself through that again, ever.

I only discovered years later that when my daughter wanted to tell him something that she knew he wouldn't like, she said that it was my idea. Not everything is as clearcut as it appears on the surface, but of course i would be devastated if it were to happen to my own gentle caring son. But maybe he too could turn into an alcoholic one day and hide it from me.

NfkDumpling Fri 21-Jun-13 13:59:15

Oh, Jane it sounds as if you went through hell and was very brave to let him still have contact. I think if I were in your shoes he would have found himself an estranged father.

It must be nearly impossible for courts to accurately judge a person's character - appearances can be so deceptive, some gentle sons of gentle mothers may not be so gentle in the emotional frenzy of a marriage breakdown.

LizG Fri 21-Jun-13 14:19:32

Sorry Maniac since reading your comments on the other thread I have had several attempts to reply on here. Each time I have cleared it down because it has all proved too painful. I appreciate how difficult this subject must be for you but sadly I so wish there was an organisation called 'Mothers for Justice'. Between my ex son in law and the Government my daughter's life has been made a misery and actually, though she is far from perfect, through no fault of her own.

I have to say when I saw the heading on this thread last week and knowing of my feelings I decided to keep well clear.

janerowena Sat 22-Jun-13 18:37:28

I should have added, I hid what he was like from everyone, including his mother who I loved dearly. It was pride, and always thinking that one day he would change. It was only when he hit me in public that I realised that I had to leave, and my friend who witnessed it offered me a place to stay. I also should have added that not only did he pin hmy daughter by the throat dangling up against the wall, he also made her walk all the way back to the bar by herself at almost 3am, where she was let in by some very surprised and slightly concerned waiters to retrieve her purse. There were other occurences later on, that was just the first.
Emotions are such a mess at times like this, it was hard to see my MIL because how can you tell a mother that her son is horrible? It's easier not to see them at all, in the same way that it's easier not to see the partner at all. She is dead now, and I miss her very much. Ex is still an alcoholic, leading his partner a merry dance.

henetha Sun 23-Jun-13 14:54:22

I don't agree with vandalism, no matter what the cause, and it does not give a good impression of the people who do it. BUT, those who are separated from their children or grandchildren have my deepest sympathy.
I cannot imagine anything more heart-breaking than not being allowed contact, and those who deny contact should stop and think about what distress they are causing. It's pure selfishness, unless there is some
justifiable and overwhelming reason why contact should not be granted.

One of the worst things must be for fathers who have to put up with
another guy living in their house and having daily contact with the children. I hate ex-wives who do this.

Maniac Mon 24-Jun-13 13:25:21

Janerowena I’m sorry you had such a hard time with your ex.I admire your compassion and wisdom in allowing your daughter to make her own decisions.
I’m sure she will grow up a balanced and mature woman as a result of your attitudes .I wish you all well
I also didn’t tell my MIL about my ex’s infidelities and drinking.I wrote to her saying that I would like to keep in touch with her but my SIL wrote requesting that I refrain from further contact.I certainly wouldn’t have dreamt of denying her contact with her grandchildren –they were almost adults by then..
I have an amicable relationship with my ex and visit him in his care home.He's recently moved to be near my daughter in Cheshire.

Stansgran Mon 24-Jun-13 13:48:55

Perhaps this man was having a medieval cry for help. Putting a plea to the Queen. I know she has no authority but perhaps it was a last resort who else can I turn to feeling.

Maniac Wed 26-Jun-13 12:06:22

LizG You may like to know that there is a website Justice and also MATCH Mothers Apart from their Children.
I'm sorry to hear your DD had trouble with ex SIL and Govt -which dept was that?
My opinion of British justice especially in Family Justice courts is at rock bottom but in 90% of cases the bias is against fathers -hence the desperate pleas .
Look forward to seeing you again soon.

Maniac Wed 26-Jun-13 13:09:17

Oops ! that link didn't work .It is

celebgran Wed 26-Jun-13 13:52:58

My niece has stopped herm3 girls 6 t and 4 from seeing their dad.think she lost the plot! He was so hands on and loving to them. He is is bits waiting of Court date now she has cut me out as I dared to speak to him!

What is the matter with people.

celebgran Wed 26-Jun-13 13:54:18

Damned iPad meant 3 girls ages 6 5 -and 4 so young! The dreadful thing into use children a pawns is beyond awful in my book