Karma?

Depends on the weather, the soil type, luck and a few other things. Ask any gardener! Seriously though, there are plenty of people who do well out of being unethical.

We think they are doing well out of being unethical but what will happen when they meet Saint Peter standing at the pearly gates weighing our good deeds against our bad ones?

Karma - just random chance.

Best to do right by people, not out of fear of religious judgement, but because it is the right thing to do, and it makes society function better.

c/f my comment above, here's an example:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-its-not-just-dominique-strausskahn-the-imf-itself-should-be-on-trial-2292270.html

I don't believe in heaven or hell or any of those imaginary appurtenances. People who are unethical should not be allowed to benefit if we can stop it. Human ethics and morality are about the here and now, not some future meeting at pearly gates after all the harm has been done.

Interesting, and horrifying article. Thanks Baggy. I agree about sorting things out here and now.

My mum always used to say 'the mills of God grind slowly'. I used to laugh at her [as I did about most things], but I believe it now. having said that, it doesn't make sense of awful things happening to truly good people, but I couldn't go through life thinking I'd done wrong to people.

Which, when you think about it, is another way of saying that there's not a scrap of evidence for ANY input from 'on high' at all! People can believe what they like but not a single supernatural belief has ever stood the logic test and passed.

I try to do the right thing regardless of my karma, but not everyone is wired that way. There are people who are narcissists or psychopaths, whom doing the right thing is alien to them.

I have to disagree to those who don't believe in the supernatural. I do, I have seen enough to know there is more to this world than we can explain away as imagination. There are so many people, young and old, rich and poor, from all walks of life, who have seen lots of things and had zillions of experiences that they can't explain. They can't all be liars!

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." Albert Einstein

Faye, there is nothing to stop atheists feeling the emotions you describe. They do feel the emotions. What separates atheists from theists is the reaction to the mysteries. Theists say: it must be god(s)^; atheists say: ^that's interesting but I don't understand it yet. Perhaps nobody does. And some of them, like Einstein, start to investigate.

If you google the question: Was Einstein an atheist? you will find that we don't know. Does it matter?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I guess that you believe in one god. Thousands of gods have been invented by humans throughout our history and I also guess that you don't believe in all but one of them. So the only difference between you and me on that score is that I don't believe in all the gods you don't believe in plus one. Not much of a difference really!

So, nobody is being called a liar. Atheists do have the experiences theists have but they don't resort to the supernatural to 'explain' them. I wish you joy of your mysteries and I will enjoy mine. It actually doesn't matter that we don't agree about what causes them or how to explain them.

Cheers,
Baggy

Baggythecrust it has nothing to do with whether you believe in God or not. That is irrelevant. Some people and I would believe the majority have had some dealings with the Paranormal (unexplained). It could be a strange dream, just knowing something is going to happen, coincidences that are a million to one chance, seeing ghosts, psychic abilities etc.

I actually dont believe in God and Jesus etc. I believe there is a higher power that is within us all, but I don't have all the answers, no one does, whether it is Albert Einstein or the priest in the local church.

I believe some people do think people are lying. It makes me think of a friend who was telling me that he was outside the front of his house, digging in his garden, when a woman came along and spoke to him. They had a short conversation, he said for one second he glanced away and when he looked back she wasn't there. He said there was no where she could have gone. He didn't believe in ghosts and said he started frantically digging in the ground because there was no way in his mind that she could have just disapeared.

The interesting thing to me is, his son, all his childhood and now in his adulthood sees 'ghosts' and was terrified as a child from his experiences. Did this man not believe his son, did he believe his son was lying. Anyway he said he now does believes there is more going on that what we can see!

Thanks Faye. My feeling is that these experiences will one day be explained when we know more about how the brain works. To me the difference between people who believe in the supernatural (in whatever way) and people who don't is simply that non-believers think there is an phsical/chemical explanation that we don't understand yet (and maybe never will — there's no way of knowing). Believers apparently do not believe there is a 'natural' explanation. It's a fairly simple difference but it is also fundamental. Cheers, baggy

I don't know about karma, but I try to be good to others because it pleases ME. If I am fed up and miserable I try to do something that would cheer someone else up and that makes me feel better too.

While we are here we have to do what we can. I try to do something to make someone elses life nicer every day.like Grossi it makes ME feel better.

I believe in Karma,.. I also believe Karma is about the spirit rather than the personality. I think its about a balance of energy and it may take longer than this one lifetime to manifest. I don't think our personalities come back but I believe our energy or spirit does.
It is intention that matters - Many people give to charity and in itself that looks like a good deed - but if they are doing it for tax reasons, or to be praised or lied then their intention is not charitable. Likewise some people do things we may judge as 'bad' - but their intention may be what they truly believe is good.
I don't think its a very straightforward subject.

I have read books by Gary Zukav - and his theories on al this really resonate with me. 'Seat of the Soul' is good - but he does other books that put his ideas much more simply.

What goes around comes around, do as you would be done by!

I don't believe in fate or karma really, but sometimes I wonder about bad karma. You see I have all the ingredients for happiness: two grown sons, long since left home, both doing well in good jobs and happy with their girlfriends. There are weddings in the offing, I have husband who loves me (well, most of the time), a comfy house, a friendly dog, 5 chickens and a veggie garden, a few good friends and a couple of hobbies that use my creativity.

But tonight I completely lost it with my husband, we had a row, and I realised that one thing I don't have is choices. We are stuck here in Australia whether we like it or not - (I like it, he doesn't), and we both miss Yorkshire. His health isn't the best, with insomnia and IBS and other things. My health is fine. Sometimes I think I will pull all the stops out to go back to Yorkshire, but it would be a HUGE mistake, especially with Cameron in power, as we would have to live on the basic pension with no support network.Anyway, our sons are here, with grandchildren planned.

Sometimes I just want to get on a train and ride for ever, far away, never to arrive anywhere because that's when the troubles start. Sometimes, like right now, I want to go to bed and never get up.

Bad karma (if there is such a thing) reigns right now.....

I do sometimes wonder about Karma,specially this week when the neighbour next to me helped himself to the lovely display of plants that where in front of
my home,his reason was that as we where in supported housing the flowers
where communial,I asked him did he share with me the cost of the plants and the tubs? he said he didn't like plastic tubs anyway they where cheap and nasty
so I hope a ceramic tub jumps out and bites him,what goes around certainly fits
him I think.

In my opinion there is no such thing as Karma. The way you feel comes from inside, not outside.

Joan it seems as if you are really down. So you have no choices- none of us have many choices left at our age. We had our choices in our young years and we made decisions and now we have to stick to them.
It sounds as if a few St John's Wort ( in German Johanniskraut))capsules may help. They helped me. Look it up on the internet.

What a big question. I'm not big time religious but am C of E and practising in a British kind of way quietly trying to be as good as I can and doing a favour or two when I can so when I quote the Bible its because I do use the texts to help me explain life to myself and ' you reap what you sow' (I paraphrase) its something I often think when someone is really horrible or nasty to me and I resist the urge to pay back in kind. 'Vengance is mine saith the Lord' is another comforter.

My husband is more devout than myself and has studied religion in greater depth. When I query life he says 'we are only here to learn and one day it will all become clear' and thats the basis of his faith. He's a very chilled out guy. unmaterialistic and content with his lot.

Joan,.. Doesn't sound like you have much to moan about to me. You seem to have a lot to be happy about.
We always feel down sometimes. :-)

Faye - I think there is more subtlety to the human brain than is yet known about, and it may never be fully explored, because you are dealing with emotions, sensations and memories which are deeply buried. Most people have had some kind of odd experience, from meeting someone you had thought about a few minutes earlier to "knowing" something you had not been told. I certainly have.

I think we take in hundreds of fragments of perception every minute, and our unconscious brains fit them together and present us with a conclusion without our making any decision. Rather like putting two and two together to make four, but in some cases putting countless separate specks together and making a picture. Some people are better at it than others, or perhaps practice has made them better at seeing the picture more clearly. I would guess that many psychics are in this category. It is not lying, but the unconscious clues they unconsciously catch are probably from the person being "read" and the evidence is then synthesised with the psychic's knowledge of human nature and the statistical likelihood of future events to give a reading. Some of course do a bit of fishing first - " Have you lost anyone called George?" etc, but I refer to those who have a genuine belief in their abilities.

There was once a famous animal act, where a handler would ask a horse called "clever Hans" a question. Hans would tap his hoof to answer. It was exhaustively tested, and there was no trickery, the handler was perfectly honest and believed himself that Hans was answering the questions BUT here is an account of the findings www.damninteresting.com/clever-hans-the-math-horse/

Maxgran said:
Doesn't sound like you have much to moan about to me. You seem to have a lot to be happy about.
We always feel down sometimes. :-)

I completely agree, which is why I am very cross with myself!!

Charlotta mentions St Johns Wort. We have some for my husband - I never thought to try it myself. There are few side effects, except it makes you sensitive to the sun,so perhaps our winter would be the time to give it a try.

Joan - Don't be cross with yourself !! I sometimes allow myself a self pitying wallow until I think the most ridiculous thoughts and then realise I am being daft. I usually feel great afterwards. ;-)

There's the saying 'what goes around, comes around' Sometimes it seems to work and those who deserve 'bad karma' get it. But likewise, they also seem to get away with 'murder' and never get their cumuppence. So I suppose that means there's no such thing, and life is what it is - chance or luck.