Suicide

IF you really do believe in God, then it would appear to be the ultimate sin. However I think most of those that believe in a god, temper their belief to suit their own morals. My son and his wife recently married. I suspect, because she is Catholic, having children is a step to far for her personal beliefs, they have lived together for several years.
Likewise, whilst I question my belief in a God, in times of extreme trouble, I pray.
So do I believe you will go to hell - no, if for no other reason, that I do not believe in any afterlife.

You are alright, aren't you apricot?

This is just thinking aloud?

oops, sorry Apricot, how insensitive of me, not to ask if this was a rhetorical question.

Tough one for me, my youngest son committed suicide December 2008 aged 19. I would like to think that ANY God, if there is one, and of course by that I mean to encompass all beliefs, would look kindly on a troubled soul, if that makes sense?

It certainly does Pheonix, any God worthy of our belief should have compassion and understanding, which would go beyond that of mere humans.

I am sure phoenix that your son was taken in to the care of a loving god,which
ever faith he was and found peace and love,I feel for you and your loss as it
is also very very sad when a child goes before their parent's.

I always remeber the way the late Dave Allen (not sure if it should be Allan?) the comedian used to sign off at the end of his programmes "Goodnight, and may your God go with you"

I think that was back in the 80's seems even more appropriate now.

Sort of returning to the original question, I have long felt that any perceived problems may not be with any divine being, but more wth people who see themselves as being their representatives on earth? Ths may be why have certain beliefs, but not a lot of time for organised religion as such.

There was a thread on Mumsnet recently about a boy not being invited to an end of primary school party when every one else in the class had been. The boy was disabled and not able to join in things like football and other active games, the party was being held in the garden next door to his house, and the father organising the event as a vicar!

There is no hell.

It is an invention by religious leaders to keep people in line. It may have derived from a valley or pit where rubbish used to be burned in biblical times. If you were persona non grata maybe they chucked your body down there rather than do a proper burial.

Whatever the reason for the myth, it is simply a control mechanism, and very effective in some circles.

I am really sorry to hear that Phoenix, that must be a blow for you. I am pretty certain if God exists s/he would not be religious at all. Apricot I hope you are okay too.
I believe in reincarnation and no to those who like to get cross with anyone who doesn't have the same beliefs, I don't want a debate about it. It is my belief and I am sticking to it. I believe if someone commits suicide they live again the same as anyone else. I also think the idea of hell is religions way of keeping the masses in line, but most of us just don't buy it any more.

Phoenix. I'm sorry i missed the posting about your son: this must have been so terrible for you and your family.

He is at peace now, and I think this can be accepted both from any point of view, believer or non-believer.

Faye, I wish that I and the whole world believed in reincarnation, then perhaps the rich and powerful would be a bit more inclined to treat the rest of us fairly, and try to create a better society, instead of screwing as much as possible from the vulnerable and powerless. If they believed they might be reborn into poverty, poverty would soon vanish from the world.

Phoenix I am so sorry and I dont know what else to say except of course God loves him- I do believe that.

I think that the people left behind must suffer greatly (maybe that is a form of hell). I have no personal experience so please forgive me if I am missing the mark here but we humans have a habit of turning things over and over in our minds. Many people would forever wonder about the other person's motives and in low moments be thinking 'what if ...... ' 'Did I .....' 'should I have ..... ' All very illogical but so human, and if we had no imagination and feelings where would we be.

I do feel for you Phoenix, surely we should all feel compassionate towards a troubled person God, or no God.

Phoenix, Dave Allen was right in how he signed off his programme, I think. I also believe, maybe not in reincarnation, but that we do move on after this life. I believe that any troubled soul would be made welcome in that place. Perhaps we have our own personal hells, that keep raising their very ugly heads when we're at our lowest. Our own beliefs are just that -our own. It's far too sensitive a subject to discuss. I, like pompa, pray when I'm at my wit's end. I don't know to what deity this may be, but it's something that seems to help me. I don't look on this as the wrong thing to do. My heart goes out to you, Phoenix. I too lost a child, and although this was many years ago, the raw pain never seems to fade.
apricot, I hope you're feeling ok about things?

If someone commits suicide, they are troubled and in emotional pain so why would God, or a higher power judge that as a sin ?
The God I believe in is a higher power, pure energy and light,.. not a being that judges and punishes.
Perhaps some people believe the troubled sould will remain troubled after death of th eperson,.. and would class that as 'being in hell' ?? Hell is not a 'place' I would think its more a state of being ?

Thanks for your concern all you kind people. I'm fine, just thinking increasingly often that there aren't the resources to care for huge increases in frail old people so I should remove myself if I get very ill or dependent.
But I was brought up to believe suicide is a sin and still do believe that I have a soul. I don't think hell is a place, it's separation from God. This hypothetical question is about old age and is very different from a troubled younger person taking their own life.

I thought I added a response, has it disappeared? (Forgive me, still getting used to this site)

My thoughts are with you phoenix on you loss. I too like the comment Dave Allen used to make at the end of his show. I believe that this life is not the end for us, I think the spirit goes on - reincarnation is a strong possibility, or maybe heaven.

On suicide I don't believe there would be a hell I think Maxgran is right that it is a state of being.

I think hell is in the mind,..and you can change the way you think. In many ways we create our own 'hell' with our thoughts and fears,.. and if we do have a soul it is surely energy ?
Perhaps the soul continues after death and carries the energy we create with our thoughts when we were alive.
I believe its very important to create a positive attitude and learn to forgive others and most importantly ourselves.

I believe that our immortality consists in what we leave with our loved ones and other people on whom we may have had some influence for good or ill.
Sartre said,'hell is other people'; TS Eliot said, 'hell is oneself'. At times, I think, either could be right, but ultimately Eliot's view wins out with me.

Apricot, you said:

just thinking increasingly often that there aren't the resources to care for huge increases in frail old people so I should remove myself if I get very ill or dependent.

All this carry on we've been hearing about old people being a drain on the country's resources is evil. If we start talking about suicide to avoid being a burden, we are giving in to the very worst of the twisted ideas and values of the shameless far right. We have a right to life, even if we are frail and aged. We should not talk of suicide, we should be fighting for excellent, compassionate, and respectful aged care.

The resources are there, and in an era like this of high unemployment the personnel are there to look after the old or the sick and the vulnerable. All that is missing is the political will to direct resources where there is no profit to be made.

Don't think of killing yourself; instead fight for the political death of Cameron and his henchmen, and of his shameful ideals.

Joan, Totally agree with you.
It doesn't matter how productive or useful you have been in your life or how much you have contributed there are those who just see you as a lump of nothing once you get old
Its about time something was done to ensure that ALL old people are looked after properly

Maxgran, perhaps not just all OLD people, but all those who have need and may find it hard to have a voice?

I am not a Roman Catholic but I went to a Convent School from 4-18 yrs old. We were taught that if a baby dies before being baptised he/she will go to Limbo and not enter Heaven. I know it is just a Story but since my grand-daughter was stillborn (full term) in October 2008 it has tormented me that darling wee Maggie is not in Heaven with My Dad to look after her.
I know this seems silly but I have never been able to talk to anyone about it.
I just need to know she is safe and loved.

Grumpy, I think this goes back to my thoughts on supreme beings, and their so-called representatives on earth. No God, surely, would turn their back on an innocent?

I'm not terribly up to speed on the actual words of the baptism ceremony, but I think there is something about being cleansed of original sin, as if a small baby could be guilty of any sin at all!

Apologies to those Christians who adhere to every word, but I truly feel that there is so much that is founded on fear, and (I hope that this doesn't offend you) I believe that the Catholic Church is the worst offender for this.