Massive Family Problem

Are these the real names? This is a public forum and your story seems easily identifiable if any of your family saw it! Plus sometimes thread dilemmas are posted on Facebook.

I will have a think about your dilemma

Wow, messy! Do you think your mum already knows this and chooses to put her head in the sand? I’ve no experience of relatives in such dilemmas but I’ve worked in financial services for a number of years and given advice to customers. Ellen has to want to be helped, that’s the crux! She needs therapy first for this compulsive disorder. Then setting a budget, deleting online accounts, giving a weekly amount for everyday spending. Cut up cards too. Back to basics, that is going to take time and patience. You all need to come together and give her some home truths, together. The worse thing you can do is not work together. I hope you can all get through this. She also needs a monthly payment to pay Brenda back. Take care xx

1. Your mother probably knows how financially irresponsible Ellen is, she raised her - no need to protect her

2. Are you sure Ellen hasn't had any "loans" from your mother?
Even if not yet, your mother may not be able to say no to her when asked.

3. Everybody is enabling Ellen.
Brenda should kiss that loan goodbye and forget about the money
I am personally amazed brenda would give her her life savings to the golden child, it had disaster written all over it.

What you can do - not your circus not your monkeys.
Refuse to help Ellen or anybody who gets in a bad situation because they decide to "help" her

Tell Ellen you are there for her when she decides to get professional help for her financial irresponsibility

I hate to say this, but I think this is more Brenda's problem than yours. She is the one being hurt the most by this. If she asks for your help to sit and talk to Ellen, then do so, but otherwise you might just end up alienating your sisters and mother.

I thought that too Madgran.
Does anyone have POA? What does Clare think?
I feel you should have a family discussion including Ellen but probably not your Mum (mine is 86 and could not cope with that) and lay things out. Everyone needs to be open about it. and have some information re organisations who help with debt. My DD has CAP (Christian's against poverty - you don't need to be a Christian).
Your family seem to have a lot of money between you - not that it changes things. Admitting debt and seeking help is the main thing.

Interesting. Why is Brenda set to be the sole beneficiary when your mother dies? Is this part of the problem here? Clearly Ellen's spending is out of control but maybe she just thinks she's entitled to be bailed out now as she isn't going to inherit anything later on. Anyone else keen to know what Ellen does for a living?

I think you’re all too involved with each other’s finances and knowledge of them Who ever knows all these financial details about sisters or any family member I wouldn’t have a clue what any of my family spent their money on
….. and yes why is Brenda the beneficary of your mums house?
nothing to offer in the way of advice you all seem to enmeshed to be healthy

The problem hasn’t even begun yet has it, because at this rate Brenda will end up penniless and homeless or maybe even both Brenda and mother depending on mother’s state of health right now. How you get the help needed for this problem is difficult but needs doing as it is going to take years to stop by the sounds of it.

I think the four of you should sit down and talk to your mum. She may already know, but she may not. Tell Ellen you are going to do this. I’m assuming you’ve exhausted all conversations with Ellen. If you find your mum already knows, point out this isn’t fair on the rest of you. You are potentially five....Ellen is one.
You’ll go round and round in circles with an addict. You can’t help her. She has to want that herself, but you can tell her you won’t help her to stay an addict any longer.
All the best.

Thanks all.

Madgran:
Not real names.

Mattsmum:
Mum DEFINATELY does not know.
And Ellen does not want her to know.
Ellen does not think she has a problem. she is just "crap with money".
The other things are in hand, but not easy to access due to lockdown. I agree with all having to come together, but easier said than done.
Sister Delia was the first to organise recovery as it was deemed she had the best relationship with Ellen. However, Delia is a NHS first responder so was fighting bigger battles at the time.
All the other items you have suggested have been actioned, however it is very easy to open uo accounts through another route.

Hithere:
Mum does not know about her financial situation - she's 87. As none of her other 5 (fairly streetwise kids) new about it, Mum had no chance. Ellen was (and is still) earning a large amount of money. She just spends 3 times the money she earns. Mum would not be able to deny her the money -that's what we are trying to avoid.
I added myself to Mum's bank accounts last year (before this all kicked off), so I would know if anything irregular was going on. Mum has a file with all her bank account statements updated every month in a file at her home. The family can inspect it at any time, so no money going out to Ellen.
You're right, everyone is enabling Ellen
But if we kiss the loans goodbye and forget about the money, then Ellan is free to carry on - because there are no consequences.
Brenda cannot forget about the money, this is her life savings, as mentioned in the OP, she is a sweet (albeit naive person).
And it is my circus, and it is my monkeys.
THIS IS MY FAMILY.
Thanks for the responses folks.
Meg.

I think the first thing the family need to do is stop 'enabling' 'Ellen in anyway. Stop paying for anything she buys for somebody else. In fact send everything she buys for you straight back to her back to her, even if it is food. let her consume it and pay for it.

Turn everything round, if she gets into debt, and the bailiffs are threatening, let them repossess her house and remove her belongings. That is the only thing that is going to resolve this situation and possibly drive Ellen to do something about her spending habits

Make it clear to her that there will be no more loans or understandings. Ask her to provide a payment schedule for repaying all her debts to the family and say there will be legal action if she does not stick to the schedule.

Of course none of this will be done, because the current situation is entirely of your own making. Ellen is addicted to shopping. Think of her as like an alcoholic, the last thing you do if you want to help an alcoholic is buy them bottles of whisky and vodka. Yet that is what you and your family have all been doing, buying her whisky and vodka by the case and then expecting her to stop drinking it. Can you not see the madness in that behaviour?

Everything you are doing is making the final catatstrophe worse, not only will Ellen finally go bankrupt, but as things stand at the moment she will take the whole family with her because everyone else will be in debt up to their eyeballs paying for Ellen's addiction.

Sooner or later your mother will discover what is happening. The best way for her to know is when Ellen has to tell her she is bankrupt and the bailiffs are in the kitchen. That way none of the rest of the family is involved, and bit by bit you can let your mother know how much of other people's money she has had and blown.

Every day this goes on you are making the juggernaut about to run down your family go faster and faster and the disaster will be worse and worse.

I just cannot believe that sensible, articulate people like you sound can have ever have contemplated treating an addict like this without clearly seeing what the end will be.

But she keeps carrying on spending - 85k debt on top of the "loanc of 49k - no consequences I could see written in your posts

Please tell me how ellen can and will replay that money

Brenda is not streatwise.
She would help anyone in need, even if their need is lesser than hers.

The POA and contents of the will are not relevant, they are Mothers wishes and have been agreed by all her offsping.

And to reiterate. Ellen earns 4 times the amount that Brenda doesi in a year, and has a fully company provided car, all expenses paid, which is another big outlay she does not have to budget for, unlike Brenda.

And because the rest of the family I am trying to protect Brenda's home.
And none of us know the rest of the finances of the siblings financial circumstances.

It is not up to you to save something that doesnt belong to you - brenda's home

It is up to brenda to wise up and get street smarter fast, as she could end up homeless and in debt.

It doesnt matter how much ellen earns vs brenda earns.

Honestly, you can only make a difference with items you have control over.

Help brenda? Nope
Help ellen? No

I know you mean well, but there is nothing you can do to fix this

Ellen has to hit rock bottom to make changes

Surely Brenda, whether she is 'streetwise' or not is able to work out that if a very rich younger sister who has an exceptionally well paid job with perks galore has run herself up an eneormous debt by compulsive spending then to give her money to pay those debts until she has shown that the spending has stopped is like pouring petrol on a fire.

Saying She would help anyone in need, even if their need is lesser than hers. cuts no ice Surely she can see that she is not helping someone in need, she is actually enabling her sister's problems to get worse and worse and worse. She is buying cases of whisky to help an alcoholic, to continue the analogy I used above.

The whole family need to get together, agree a course of action, and then firmly pull the rug from under Ellen and make it clear that, as everything the family has done for her has only made the situation worse, in kindness to her the best thing you can do is stop and she must seek help

Here is a link to a site that can offer help to shopping addicts and their family www.uk-rehab.com/behavioural-addictions/shopping/

Google 'shopping addiction uk' and you wil get pages of organisations dealing with addiction to all kinds of things that can help your sister and the rest of the family.

In this situation any money to relieveeven her most pressing debts should be to help her stay on the straight and narrow, after she has admitted she has a problem and is several months into therapy, has destroyed all her credit cards and has reduced her debt by £10,000 (on her salary).

Meg54

Thanks all.

Madgran:
Not real names.

Mattsmum:
Mum DEFINATELY does not know.
And Ellen does not want her to know.
Ellen does not think she has a problem. she is just "crap with money".
The other things are in hand, but not easy to access due to lockdown. I agree with all having to come together, but easier said than done.
Sister Delia was the first to organise recovery as it was deemed she had the best relationship with Ellen. However, Delia is a NHS first responder so was fighting bigger battles at the time.
All the other items you have suggested have been actioned, however it is very easy to open uo accounts through another route.

Hithere:
Mum does not know about her financial situation - she's 87. As none of her other 5 (fairly streetwise kids) new about it, Mum had no chance. Ellen was (and is still) earning a large amount of money. She just spends 3 times the money she earns. Mum would not be able to deny her the money -that's what we are trying to avoid.
I added myself to Mum's bank accounts last year (before this all kicked off), so I would know if anything irregular was going on. Mum has a file with all her bank account statements updated every month in a file at her home. The family can inspect it at any time, so no money going out to Ellen.
You're right, everyone is enabling Ellen
But if we kiss the loans goodbye and forget about the money, then Ellan is free to carry on - because there are no consequences.
Brenda cannot forget about the money, this is her life savings, as mentioned in the OP, she is a sweet (albeit naive person).
And it is my circus, and it is my monkeys.
THIS IS MY FAMILY.
Thanks for the responses folks.
Meg.

If she carries on she will lose everything and be declared bankrupt. Maybe that will be the only way she stops. No mortgage for a long time, no cards, no means. What does she do for work? There are some jobs where you have to be financially responsible, such as in finance and lawyers? Whatever happens you have to stop bankrolling her. Tricky, but you may have to let it get so bad and ensure the consequences are not bad for those trying to help x

Monica.
Thanks for the reply.

However this is not family enabling Ellen.

With the exception of two family members, the family are trying to protect the two family members who are both vulnerable.
One is a 87 year disabled matriach who, as in the OP, is wholly unaware of the situation, and we know if she was aware would have no qualms about paying of all her favourite daughter debts.
The second is her carer and daughter who who has looked after her through thick, thin and covid.
Ellen does not live in the family home, so the items she buys are not immediately aware to anyone until days later - usually when we visit. We all know to check for stuff out of date, but irratating as it is, this is not a major concern.
If the bailiffs call - where is Ellen going to live ? Why straight into the her mothers and sisters home - the very thing we are trying to avoid - as her influence would be unchallengable.
I am not a friend of Jim's, but recognise the parrarels. I will not make "the catastrophe worse".
However I will, and have, taken every precaution to continue to take my mother and sister's security a priority.
And I will not hesitate to throw Ellen to the dogs.
But I will offer her the opportunity to recover first.
Thanks for your input.
Meg.

Meg glad it is not real names.

The whole family need to get together, agree a course of action, and then firmly pull the rug from under Ellen and make it clear that, as everything the family has done for her has only made the situation worse, in kindness to her the best thing you can do is stop and she must seek help

I agree with this

Ellen is an addict. I have experience of addicts, and they are all the same. She will suck you dry (not just financially) and then spit you out, because nothing matters more than her addiction. After that she’ll still be an addict, but you’ll all be shrivelled up and exhausted. Step away from her until she’s ready to acknowledge she needs help, then help her in every possible way. Persuade the others to do the same. If they won’t, that’s their decision.

Meg54,

You are in major denial - enabling happens at all levels (for example you trying to save B's home)
So you enable B, who enables E.

Where ellen is going to live if bailiff calls is not your problem
Your mother and sister will enable your sister letting her live with them - it is their choice, not yours

Dont you see how the whole family is in this?
Hiding the pink elephant in the room so your mother is "safe" from this?

As you are on your mother's bank accounts, can it be arranged that there is a limit to how much she can take out without getting your signature also?

i disagree with some people on here.
i can see why OP wants to protect her mother and her sister who lives with and looks after her mother.
they are both vulnerable people.
i don't know what to suggest, OP.
is there any way you can be in charge of finances for you mother, eg ordering groceries, paying utilities, and other necessaries, so she only has access to a small sum for personal items.
that would limit what she could give to Ellen.
and if you all had a council of war, including Brenda, to agree that no one must give any more money to Ellen, nor accept so-called bargains, and certainly not pay for them.
then have Ellen in on the meeting and tell her your joint decision.
but unless you could control your mother's use of money, i guess Ellen could circumvent your plans by approaching mother.
i do see the problem. i hope you sort something to improve things.

"Are these the real names? This is a public forum and your story seems easily identifiable if any of your family saw it! Plus sometimes thread dilemmas are posted on Facebook. "

I doubt it as they are alphabetical