not allowed to see grand daughter

Outside Dave, the allegations made against my husband were completely made up by my daughter who made this assumption simply because my gd displayed sexual inappropriateness towards her cousin, they were both 6yrs old at the time of which my gs has only just "remembered this" he and my gd are now 11yrs old. My daughter seems to think my gd (her neice) must've been shown this behaviour by my husband, her grandad. Even though my gd was removed from her mothers care when she was 5yrs old into my sons custody, due to physical and emotional abuse and having witnessed her mother when younger having relations with different men in her life, all proven by a court of law. My daughters partner has been the catalyst in all of these allegations towards my husband who has spoken with the police and social services who have had serious words with my daughter and her partner and it has been their suggestion to me that I seek legal recourse for a visitation order to see my 3yr old gd. Therefore any advice I've given to other grandparents has indirectly come from the authorities and also from other grandparents on a private group I have joined on facebook of grandparents in similar situations as myself...just letting you know...

It was good of you to come back and give further clarification elena.

I hope you're finding the private grandparents group you've joined supportive as well as informative.

Thankyou Smileless2012, the support group have many heartbreaking stories of where some gp have given me some good advice. I will put up on here anything I think we can use to help us all in our fight to see our gc. I am awaiting a call from a barrister tomorrow, his number was up on gransnet. I'll let everyone know how it goes x

Good luck elena

And if you’re wrong Elana? If your daughter is correct in her suspicions- what then. Have you considered that at all?

Imitating sexual behaviour is a HUGE red flag of abuse. It does really sound like she was abused. Why did she immediately think that it was your husband? I would think in a loving and secure relationship that she would look at others with suspicion.

Maybe she feels that in your adamant defense of your husband that you aren't taking it seriously enough. You're stuck in a very difficult position.

I was abused and thanks to my parents ignoring me and not taking it seriously, it continued for years. Just because there is no evidence, doesn't mean it didn't happen. It's very hard to prove BUT your granddaughter never said he did anything?

Honestly I have no advice, it might be that she never trusts you, which is sad. If you want to try and mend it, focus less on defending your husband (I don't mean accuse him or believe he did it) but focus more on what did happen and making sure that nothing like that ever happens. If she sees you taking it seriously and taking precautions maybe then she will trust you. Maybe.

I would remove all doubt about your granddaughter being abused though. The copying behaviour just really isn't seen unless someone is abused. Kids don't naturally do that. Make sure that you don't deny that anything happened. A couple times in your posts it seemed like you thought it was a lie "my gs has only just "remembered this."" The quotation marks make me feel that you don't believe it. Make sure she understands that you aren't just denying anything happened for the sake of your husband.

If elena is able to see her GD, her husband wont be having any contact; she's already made it clear that he wants no contact with his step daughter or the children.

My gd was in an abusive situation up until 5yrs old. She was removed from her mothers care due to physical and emotional abuse, placed in my sons care permanently. She witnessed her mother with men as the silly mother put my gd bed in her bedroom. This was simply to stop my gd climbing on her own bedroom window sill alerting neighbours of the hours she was locked in her bedroom as her mother did this constantly, ss were alerted. We very quickly discovered my gd with her sexualised behaviour of which between us all we sought the help and counselling my gd needed of which she received for years, she is now 11yrs old and absolutely fine. I dont dispute for a minute that some of what my gs has written actually did occur. I have acknowledged this with my daughter. Each professional we have spoken to have all stated the same that when a child witnesses sexualised behaviour they may imitate this of which they all believe my gd has done. But nobody has ever come to the conclusion that my gd has actually been sexually abused herself. My daughter has concluded my husband to be the abuser purely because both myself and husband spent so much time with my gd in her younger years giving her the support she needed to get her through the bad memories of when living with her mother, and fact when my son gained custody we all lived in the same house which helped my son able to still work, myself doing the school runs, homework etc. Obviously my husband has a strong bond with my gd, but it was myself that did the caring mostly. He worked a night shift has done for years, so slept during the day, and my son was always at home in the evenings taking care of his daughter. My husband also raised 2 children, daughters, alone as his ex wife died tragically, his daughters both work for the nhs, one as a nurse, both normal women with their own families. My daughter at one point even tried to say my husband abused his own daughters. This did not go down too well with my step daughters, they were enraged to say the least. I have told my daughter I would be alone to visit my gc, in fact my husband has never visited my gc with me ever apart from xmas. He still works nights and does nothing on his time off. So how my daughter can still stick her heels in disallowing me seeing my gc is beyond me. She has never said I personally have harmed my gc in anyway, but because I'm with my husband, the man she says is some kind of abuser, then she has to keep her children safe. How safe I ask myself, from me, whom she has admitted hasnt actually harmed her children, please can someone explain what is going on here....

Good for you standing up for yiurself

elena it appears that your D has some issues of her own. She's not prepared to accept that despite being investigated and cleared, that your H has not abused his GD.

The fact that she's subsequently accused her brother of abusing his own daughter's further illustrates that this is something she needs help with.

She wants no contact with her step father or any contact between him and her children that said, the only 'explanation' is that she's angry with you for not believing her but believe your H, social services and the police.

You've also not believed her allegations toward your son.

Denying you contact with your GC is IMO to punish you, which also punishes her children as well.

elena -- You answered the question yourself... but because I'm with my husband, the man she says is some kind of abuser, then she has to keep her children safe.

She believes (rightly or wrongly) that your husband is abusive. If she believes that and feels you are in denial/not willing to see any family issues then she is going to keep you away.

You continue to insist -- "But nobody has ever come to the conclusion that my gd has actually been sexually abused herself." However -- She witnessed her mother with men as the silly mother put my gd bed in her bedroom. This was simply to stop my gd climbing on her own bedroom window sill alerting neighbours of the hours she was locked in her bedroom as her mother did this constantly

THAT is "sexual abuse" by definition! It doesn't get more clear-cut then that. Whether anyone physically touched her changes NOTHING. Your grand-daughter was sexually abused. If you cannot even come to terms with that FACT, what are the chances you could be in equal denial about other family issues?

So how my daughter can still stick her heels in disallowing me seeing my gc is beyond me. If I had to give a guess, it's because she feels like you are just dismissing her concerns and not listening. Your admission that it is 'beyond you' says to me you are unable to see things from HER perspective. You do not have to agree with her perspective but you do need to understand it. And you do. She thinks you are married to an abuser.

Anyone who understands the cycle of abuse will rightfully not allow their minor children around someone they think is an abuser. Neither will they allow them around an enabler of an abuser because enablers are also dysfunctional thinkers and you don't purposefully expose children to unhealthy thinkers either.

elana as I've said previously, your daughter rightly or wrongly believes what she believes. How have you reacted to that? You've come out all guns blazing at your daughter. You've lost her trust. Now you want her forced by law to leave her little children with you, one of which who was subjected to sexual behaviour by a child that lives with you. I can't fathom your response to this at all. Either there is more to this than you are revealing, or both your reactions and your daughters make no sense as you explain it. In this situation I would have taken my daughters corner at the beginning and made sure she was supported through whatever lies behind this, not reacted with anger at my daughter trying to protect her children. You did it for your son but not your daughter.

My red flags

Daughters concerns not taken seriously by you.

You suggest that this may be due to her partners influence which would imply daughter could be in an abusive situation herself and therefore her children.

Your grandson was exposed to sexual behaviour and you haven't shown the same concern for him as you have shown your granddaughter.

If your daughter has no basis for these allegations at all that would suggest she needs help with her mental health which is not a concern for you even though children live with her.

Your only concern is you. That you get access to minor children no matter how much damage that causes your daughter and therefor your grandchildren. No matter how much time it takes her away from her children fighting you. No matter how much financial hardship it causes your daughter and your grandchildren fighting you. No matter how forced the contact will be and how it may impact other things your grandchildren might like to do instead. No matter howuch stress it causes your daughter which will again negatively affect the children.

The aim here should not be to win at all costs, and the cost will be huge. The aim should be to heal whatever has caused this in the first place.

Another red flag I saw was, "My daughter at one point even tried to say my husband abused his own daughters. This did not go down too well with my step daughters, they were enraged to say the least."

If I was raised by good parents and someone accused one or both of them of being abusive, I would want to know WHY the person felt that way and I would be confused and saddened. Rage is generally a reaction to being confronted with something you don't want to acknowledge/address.

Anger and rage are the default settings in a dysfunctional environment. Husband sent the police after daughter for saying untrue things. That's not what I call 'normal' mature behavior like talking or ignoring if untrue.

And lastly, I agree with Starblaze. Grandparents who push for courts to force access are only putting their wants/'need' first. There is no consideration of any of those points. And of course no thought to if she is successful or not, that it will completely end the relationship.

I miss read your post elena and aplogise, I thought your D had accused her brother of abusing his D's when it was another allegation about your H.

No wonder his D's were enraged. Anger and rage are not only to be found in a dysfunctional environment, they're natural reactions when someone you love is falsely accused, especially of something as terrible a child abuse.

www.bristolgrandparentssupportgroup.co.uk/

This group supports all U.K. grandparents going through separation from grandchildren though initially set up to find support in Bristol it mushroomed after Esther Rantzen contacted Jane. Jane’s granddaughter found her again once she was old enough to make her own decision but the group still seems to be running.

Thanks for the link*Sussexborn*

I just wanted to add elena that it's obvious to me why you say your GD wasn't sexually abused. She wasn't physically abused. You've acknowledged that she witnessed her mother's sexual activity which is abuse and affected her, so you are not in denial

Hi Holyhannah, I do need to respond from the message you posted to give some extended facts. My gd whom my daughter had the problem with no longer lives with me, her dad, my son found his own place with his partner and gd a couple of years ago now.
As for taking my daughter to the side to try to work all this out I have been asking to meet with her alone for 2 months now, away from any child, along with her partner, or to speak with her partner alone, she has refused point blank. Just to talk and try to get some resolve, to listen to her and for her me, instead of relying on texts which do sometimes get misconstrued.
My husband clearly was upset and angry when he first heard the allegation. He did ignore the comments for weeks, and only made the decision to speak with the police to go and have words with my d and the bf because I received a call from my son. His child attends the same nursery as my daughters child, ( 2 gd attend same nursery). The manager of the nursery pulled my son to one side explaining that my d and her bf had disclosed the unpleasant information of my husband being a peodophile and to look out for any signs of abuse towards his children, my 11yr old and 10 month old gc. This was the last straw prompting my husband to speak to police. My son loves his step dad, my husband, and knows without a doubt my husband has never hurt any child. The police intervention was purely to ask that they stop spreading their opinions, as the police stated, no evidence, gd has never said anybody has physically touched her inappropriately, no proof, and nobody has the right to run around speaking out. He said people can think what they like but to tell every Joe blogs is unacceptable. We live in a very small town and unfortunately mud sticks even when there is no truth in the matter. It can ruin lives, peoples livelihood everything. My husband is one of the most unconfrontational people I know yet he went to my d to speak with her and the bf but they wouldn't open the door. The bf is 6ft 1, 30 yr old man, my husband is a 5ft 9, 63 yr old. So he certainly wasnt a threat to this young man who can clearly look after himself.
The call I received from a barrister yesterday disclosed that when grandparents decide to sit back in the hope their family will come around to allow contact with their gc they are actually wasting precious time. He said before a person knows it 2 years have past and then the courts dont tend to look at it the same as if it had only been a few weeks. They believe because of the time span there is no relationship between gp and gc anymore. He advised the sooner a gp takes the legal recourse the higher the chances are of being given visitation. I have told my daughter of my intention if she doesn't allow me contact or to even talk with her face to face in the hope she sees sense. I have explained that I would be alone, not that this hasn't always been the case. The last thing I want is to sever the relationship permanently but I don't see I have any other option.
I'm not wanting to go down the legal route for just my own wants and needs. Plus the expense of money I do not have to spare, credit card has to be the way. It's about my gc as well, my 3yr old doesn't have a voice yet, but what I do know is she throws her arms around my neck, running into my arms the second she sees me, she never leaves me alone for one second when I visit her so I know she wants and needs me too in her life to continue giving her the love and care I have always done since the day she was born....

Hi Sussexborn, the link for Bristol is the site I'm on, I should've shared it with everyone, didnt think, sorry to all. They are a really lovely group of people and I message a lady who has been successful in seeing her gc and has offered to help me with the court forms rather than pay hundreds to a barrister, it's only a small group but lots of support x

Hi Starblaze, I did respond to Holyhannah earlier but I believe some of my response applies to comments you made so I hope you and everyone on this thread read through to understand some of what has happened.

I actually really have tried regarding support for my grandson bless him. I have spoken with social workers begging them to please sit down and work with him of which I know they haven't yet as my daughter has text me. I've begged and pleaded with her to allow me to sit with my gs, to put my arms around him and tell him I'm sorry and how everything is going to be ok, how much I love him, but d wont allow me to. I know some of what he has spoken of has happened of which I have admitted to my d and sw.

As for my d mental health you would be amazed as to how many people have asked is she now on drugs, something to explain her behaviour today. Her whole life she has been nothing but a caring loving daughter. Never a day until January did she not call to tell me she loved me, so I'm sure you can imagine my despair and worry for how her mind is working at present.
She has always known of my gd past with the sexualised behaviour, things she has said, drawn etc, and all the counselling my gd received. But then my d has still allowed me to take my gs away on holiday, last year camping, year before caravanning for a week. Each holiday has been myself, daughter in law, my two gs 11 and 12 and my 11yr old gd. My 11yr old gs, accuser of my 11yr old gd has happily come on holiday with us every year, always had a blast, loved every minute asking when can you take us again nanna. Yet this same child is claiming he is scared to death of his cousin of something that happened when they were 6yrs old. If somebody can explain this scenario to me I would gladly welcome it. Plus if my d had her reservations then why on earth would she even consider allowing her son to go camping with me and her niece, my gd.
I'm open to any thoughts on all of this, I know it will be a struggle trying to explain any of this before a court but I just can't see what else i can do really, thankyou everyone x

Elana, you are playing with fire here.

Your situation is very complicated, much more complex than you simply wanting to see your grandchildren.

There are so many factors involved that I cannot understand why anyone is encouraging you to proceed to court. I really can’t.

These are serious matters that need to be resolved before you can have a relationship with your grandchildren. Surely you understand this?

Is your DH happy about you going to court? I can’t imagine he is because the accusations your daughter has made against him will be presented to the court. The accusations made by your grandson against your granddaughter will be presented to the court. You will be presented as someone who is in denial and unable to keep your grandchildren safe. Are you prepared for that?

Now you want her forced by law to leave her little children with you, one of which who was subjected to sexual behaviour by a child that lives with you

This.

Your previous posts sound incredibly dismissive of your grandson’s experiences so I can imagine he is well aware of your thoughts on the situation himself. What makes you think he will want to see you? Are you prepared for that?

You seem so focused on seeing your grandchildren at any cost, that you seem to be dismissing the severity of the events that have led to your current situation. A court won’t be as dismissive of these events.

Yet this same child is claiming he is scared to death of his cousin of something that happened when they were 6yrs old

Something similar happened to me as a child with a cousin of similar age. It still affects me to this day.

How your grandson processes what has happened to him doesn’t need to make sense to you. His feeling are valid nonetheless. Children can put a brave face on too, just like adults can.

He is 11 years old. He will have some basic understanding of sexual education. Something he probably didn't understand before now makes sense to him as something that should not have happened and he will have a lot of processing to do.

Starblaze, HH, outsidedave,motherofdragons,
You nailed it

I hope I didn't miss anyone

elena's GS not being aware until he was older that what happened with his cousin was not 'normal' behaviour was a point I made on another thread on this forum on Monday; 4 days ago!