Interesting watch

It would depend who you speak too. Not everyone who estranges will have made a conscious decision never to speak to a person again, but some will have.

"You are no longer a part of mine and ..... life and are to stay away". The conscious decision to never speak to us again was pretty clear.

You may not agree with how many people who've been estranged who say they've been given no reason but unless you know them, know their family circumstances and know the person whose estranged them, you're not in a position to judge, and even then, there's a lot that happens in families that those outside of the family have no knowledge of.

I wouldn't feel comfortable if someone said they didn't agree with how many people say they had no choice but to estrange.

Both responses are judgemental and can make either the EP or EAC feel unable to talk about their experience, which in turn can prevent them from seeking and finding the support they need.

There are problems and disagreements in all families but they don't always result in estrangement. We know a couple of families who've had years of what we would think is dysfunctional behaviour, but as a family unit remain close.

I've never seen an EP say they needed a physical list of reasons by way of an explanation. 'I can't have a relationship with you because..........' is an explanation. It also gives the one being estranged an opportunity should they wish to take it, to try and resolve the situation.

Avoiding estrangement and when it's happened, successfully reconciling requires communication. A coming together, with a mutual desire to listen, to understand and to accept one's failings and apologise.

10 years ago our dil announced, completely out of the blue, that she wasn't going to see us again . (And that extended to the grandchildren not being allowed to see us). We asked repeatedly what we had done wrong but she refused to communicate with us. Five years later when she and DS divorced she admitted we had done nothing and that she had been unreasonable. The fact is that it suited her better not to have in-laws in her life

We're certain that's why we were estranged eddiecat but have no idea why our son went along with it. At least she had the courage to admit how wrong she'd been, even if it took 5 years but you can't get those years back can you.

Smileless2012

We're certain that's why we were estranged eddiecat but have no idea why our son went along with it. At least she had the courage to admit how wrong she'd been, even if it took 5 years but you can't get those years back can you.

Absolutely Smileless - and you helped me survive that nightmare! I'm sure the majority of people who are cut off do everything they can to try to put things right, but how can you do that if the other person has absolutely no interest in reconciliation and refuses to discuss anything! Sadly I think there are people who just want to interact with their own friends (and family) and will come up with any excuse as to why they shouldn't see anyone else

I remember eddiecat. Thank goodness there is non judgemental support available, because there's nothing you can do if the other person/people have no desire to resolve the situation and that can be the person whose been estranged or the person estranging.

You hear a lot of “I was given no explanation”. More often than not, it’s just not the explanation the other party accepts or feels is a valid enough reason. I can’t say there is never an occasion on which a family or parent is truly ghosted, but there is always a reason.

My MIL is the perfect example of never taking accountability for why she was not allowed to play a huge role in my children’s life. On the outside, she can say she was always kind. And she was…in front of others. But she was very passive aggressive. She was more of a covert bully and very manipulatively controlling with my husband and his father. It was almost as though she hated seeing how much her son loved me. I pitied her until she became unbearably wicked. People like her needle and needle and needle until the other person either caves or walks away. My husband and I walked away when he finally saw her behavior for what it was: mean, divisive, controlling, and terribly unloving. Because we did not entertain her repeated attempts to manipulate and bait us, she went on her character assassination campaign. Like a bully, she told anyone and everyone who would listen how her daughter in law took away her son and her grandkids. Covert bullies always need to get their side out to as many people as possible to rally other against their “foes”. They will tell the same lies over and over and over until they start to believe the lies themselves. I guess you can say we chose to ghost her rather than take on the stress and negativity. We left the country and she found out through relatives. My children are now all adults, and while they have wonderful connections with my side, they really have no relationship with her now. I guess I’m saying that estrangement is never easy. There is never an easy way to break ties with family. I’m not going to judge anyone who finds their peace, even if others don’t accept the manner in which they achieved it. The stress of toxic relationships can literally kill people. I have sympathy for anyone who feels so pushed to the brink that they have to estrange.

When someone says they haven't been given an explanation it's because they haven't. Not agreeing that an explanation given is satisfactory/a good enough or justifiable reason, isn't the same.

I also have sympathy with anyone who felt they had no choice but to estrange.

I agree with what you say about telling the same lies over and over until they start to believe the lies themselves as this has been our experience with our ES and his wife.

That’s just not always true. My MIL told many that she never received an explanation. The truth is that in the months leading up to our separation, she was told that her overbearing, controlling, mean behavior was pushing us away. She has and still does tell people we stopped our relationship with her without an explanation. But she knows why. The semantics involved in the tedious debate of when the “final explanation” or notification happened is just not something we were interested in. She knew her behavior leading up was pushing us away. The fact that she twists it to say “I was never given an explanation” simply because she didn’t get a final letter or final relationship-ending conversation is often the same excuse some others use. It’s just more manipulation. Estrangement doesn’t happen out of nowhere.

lyleLyle

That’s just not always true. My MIL told many that she never received an explanation. The truth is that in the months leading up to our separation, she was told that her overbearing, controlling, mean behavior was pushing us away. She has and still does tell people we stopped our relationship with her without an explanation. But she knows why. The semantics involved in the tedious debate of when the “final explanation” or notification happened is just not something we were interested in. She knew her behavior leading up was pushing us away. The fact that she twists it to say “I was never given an explanation” simply because she didn’t get a final letter or final relationship-ending conversation is often the same excuse some others use. It’s just more manipulation. Estrangement doesn’t happen out of nowhere.

Indeed.
Seems to be true for many people we know, don't open ears and listen.

Depends on whether it is you estranging or if you yourself have been. Listening to a programme today about narcissistic mothers, it was amazing the siblings who didn’t agree with their siblings version of events. It comes easier for some than others and what support you have, how you cope. If a young mother with a busy life juggling everything and is estranged it must be more bearable than a lonely or elderly person who has little contact with others. It has become so common now I think I’ve never met anyone that either didn’t personally have experience or know of someone that is. It’s a pity they don’t teach communication skills in school and looking relationships from all sides,

I am a big advocate of Stand Alone and the work they do. They have done quite a lot of interesting research into estrangement amd the causes that is worth looking into.

Estrangement doesn’t happen out of nowhere

No it doesn't. It also tends to have many different reasons and scenarios. And the reasons are not always the behaviour of the person being estranged. Nor is it always the behaviour of the person doing the estranging. Every scenario, relationship, cause of estrangement is different. Yes common factors can be identified but common factors do not mean they apply to every case.

Perhaps the differences mentioned in the discussion need more thought.

In the case of estrangement between parent/s and child, people can be quite set in their ways and not open to the younger generation doing things differently.

So as a parent myself amd being aware of estrangement having seen it in my family growing up and being estranged myself, I am very mindful that my children are growing up in a different world than I did with different needs, different expectations and of course, different opinions.

I always listen, discussions are always calm and rational. My views on life and the world we live in are ever changing and I try to always be open minded amd meet all theor views with patience and understanding.

The world is ever evolving and changing with it, especially respectfully towards my own children is one way I hope to break that cycle.

This may mean that they come to me at some time in the future with things they aren't happy about in their childhoods and that is when it will be my place to be accountable.

This may mean that I struggle with their decisions and life choices. But as adults I must respect their right to live a life that could be very different to mine or very different what I envisioned for them as they grew. Even if they make mistakes it's not my place to try to stop them only listen, support and give advice when asked.

My children are reaching adulthood 1 by one and when they are not under my roof my rules do not apply. We meet equally and respectfully as family members, no longer mother and child but mother and son/daughter except when they need mothering lol

Estrangement is something we can learn from

Violet I agree about Stand Alone. It is potentially helpful for anyone affected by Estrangement or fearing it, depending on their particular needs

I'm not doubting what you say about your m.i.l. 1yleLyle. Your experience is that you did try to explain what was wrong with the relationship and her behaviour, but that wasn't our experience and isn't the experience for all EP's.

As you say Madgran, common factors can be identified but that doesn't mean they apply in every case.

Estrangement can happen because parents don't listen and communicate calmly and rationally with their children but estrangement can and does happen when parents do.

If estrangement is to be avoided that must be a shared goal of all concerned. If one 'side' isn't prepared to listen, to make changes and accept and apologise for past behaviours then it becomes inevitable.

If we are to learn from our own and others experience of estrangement we need to accept that it is not always because of failings from parents.

don't open ears and listen is just as applicable to some EAC as it is to some EP's. Ears may be open as is the desire to listen, but there needs to be something to listen too apart from in some cases the silence, which is defeaning.

These are adult relationships Smileless children estranging parents is only one aspect. There are many kinds of estrangement.

Your personal situation is your own but I think it is important for everyone remain open minded to different situations and issues that surround estrangement.

Statements such as "This does not relate to mine or many other situations" slam doors that may lead to reconciliation for some families and put road blocks in front of open discussion

it is important for everyone (to) remain open minded to different situations and issues that surround estrangement

I agree. The difficulties tend to arise when people describe their circumstances/experiences and then, in the way they express themselves, APPEAR to assume that someone else's experience /circumstances isn't true. It may only be the way thoughts are phrased and may not be intentional (emotions inevitably run high) but it does seem to be an ongoing problem in Estrangement discussions. And as you say can become a barrier. That is one of the main reasons why I continue to point out that there are so many different circumstances and experiences and causes. Certainly not to slam doors but to try to ensure that everyone is able to feel acknowledged in their experience of their Estrangement in order to keep the discussion open, supportive and helpful rather than closed and argumentative. I am sure that is your aim as well. Let's hope it works.

In the interest of honest discussion some statements are open and some are closed

I like open statements, we know from the stand alone website and their research that there is a disconnect between explanations given and explanations recieved and that's one area of conversation that will benefit more people by staying open

It’s hard to open ears and listen when one is actively and primarily seeking validation of “their side” of the story. That puts an immediate roadblock in the way because seeing things from the other perspective is automatically deprioritised. I find this to be be the case too often. As we all can admit, estrangement doesn’t just happen out of nowhere, even if the end of the relationship felt abrupt. How can we simultaneously admit that estrangement is not something that comes out of thin air, but deny awareness of any offense we may have caused? How can it be both? I cannot reconcile these two stances. Estrangement is no light action to take. For such a heavy response to a familial relationship breakdown, how can total ignorance of the offending behavior truly exist? It just doesn’t seem likely.

I am in total agreement with all comments that point out that there are specific nuances and differences in each case. I find this subject to be one of those where it is a very slippery slope when learning from the experiences of others. It can be very insightful and help you work through feelings surrounding your own situation. However, as it has been pointed out, each situation and relationship is its own. The circumstances surrounding an individual estrangement are their own. The personalities and relationship dynamics are their own, even in those instances where there appears to be similarities. But there is always the danger of tribalism that can lead to being a barrier to reconciliation. It happens all the time. You read about someone else’s situation, which is totally different to your own, but is related to estrangement so you feel a shared sense feeling wronged. Instead of examining your individual circumstances, you lean into the tribe and the labels. We speak so specifically about the offenses of the other parties, and either gloss over or flat out never mention our own. The Us vs Them aspect then becomes the rallying call, and the individual relationships remain broken and likely to shatter for good. And I’m sure it provides a temporary comfort, but it’s a false comfort because our losses still are what they are. So while I do agree that there is absolutely some benefit to listening to how others have worked through broken relationships, in the end it all comes back to the people directly in the relationships. One or both have to be willing to accept that the way you have treated someone or behaved toward them was unacceptable to that person, even if you disagree on how your behavior should have been perceived.

Unrelated to my comments above, I also caution dismissing one offspring’s (or parent’s) concerns just because others did not agree with the estranger’s recollections. It’s positively absurd to ignore the fact that one person’s experiences with parents (or their child) can and often are quite different even in the same household.

Really insightful comment lyleLyle thank you

I don't discuss estrangement anywhere else for the reasons mentioned

I'm as different as every estranged child is to each other

I was willing to reconcile for a long time and it took me a long time to move on from that hope

That's not because I changed my mind and decided to close a door, it is because I went through the process of grieving and my connection or need for those family members healed. I no longer feel that need and the connection is gone.

Of course the fact that my situation exists opens up the possibility that others feel the same way, that there are estranged people waiting for the right words or the right changes to walk through that door again

That's enough evidence for me that reconciliation after estrangement is a possibility for some families and that is without reading a website like stand alone and hearing it from others

Interesting post Lyle-Lyle. And a good description of the difficulties that can arise.

Yes open comments are good; that includes statements that open up previously closed statements Violet which is good.

Yes it is an ongoing problem in estrangement discussions Madgran as we see here on GN. It's difficult to feel for example that one's personal experience is being acknowledged, when there are comments about not agreeing with the numbers of people who say they've not been given a reason for their estrangement, and how can total ignorance of offending behaviour exist.

A poster who says they've never been given a reason is as entitled to be believed as the poster who says they gave reasons and tried to save the relationship, but to no avail.

People will seek to validate their experiences when those experiences are being invalidated by others.

I'm sorry you aren't enjoying this discussion Smileless

I find it quite easy to detach my personal situation from discussion in general but I appreciate that's quite difficult for some

Really uncanny timing as my self estranged mother rang me this week. I did not answer as I was dealing with baby feeding and sleeping which is more important but the first contact in o era 24 months I didn't feel I should answer. It made me feel angry that she expected me to