Universal basic income

As foolproof as possible, yes. But a system is only foolproof until it is put into practice.
After it comes into practice, it doesn’t actually matter how you dress it up. In my considerable experience of dealing with fraud, there are those who will work out a way to defraud whatever system is put in place.
If your experience is different, I’m happy for you.

Mollygo, I don't know what your problem is. There is a very low rate of fraud. That gives us no insight into whether we should or shouldn't have UBI; it's totally off topic.

If you have been dealing with it it will have felt large because you were only in one part of the pie - the part that is 1.9% of the whole benefits pie and includes user and government errors.

You seem to be trying to have an argument about something we weren't discussing after I have tried to help by giving you some stats. Why not start a thread on fraud if it means so much to you?

PippaZ I don’t know what your problem is either. You seem determined to argue but you’ll have to do it alone. Sorry.

Chakotay Yes, you would pay tax on some working age benefits, if you only received them for part of the tax year and your income increased for the rest of the year. This happens frequently to people who are unemployed for just a couple of months.

People receiving benefits only receive it tax-free if their total income for the tax year is very low.

PS. I'm paying more tax since my state pension started. As others have stated, my income has increased, so I don't see why that's unfair.

Mollygo

The fraud proofing is about those who know how to work the system. It didn’t stop fraud during furlough, it doesn’t stop fraud with disability benefits.
Even if the majority of people claim honestly, a huge amount will still lost through fraud. Perhaps this should be built in to the funding planning for UBI.

As a matter of interest, what do you mean by a "huge amount"?

Yes, you would pay tax on some working age benefits, if you only received them for part of the tax year and your income increased for the rest of the year. This happens frequently to people who are unemployed for just a couple of months.

I didn't know that. So it's really only a loan unless you can are out of work for the whole tax year ... could you imagine a few expletives. That does not seem at all right.

If there was UBI there would be no fraud because it would be a flat rate for all and received by all. No benefits.

How would anyone be able to defraud that?

Only over citizenship Maizie but the government needs to stop blaming citizens and sort their system out so perhaps that would be no bad thing. Although any fraud is not a good thing I do wonder about the overpayments and underpayments being chucked in to make the figure look bigger, pushing it up to 1.9%. I would love to know what it actually is - less than 1.9% obviously

PippaZ

^Yes, you would pay tax on some working age benefits, if you only received them for part of the tax year and your income increased for the rest of the year. This happens frequently to people who are unemployed for just a couple of months.^

I didn't know that. So it's really only a loan unless you can are out of work for the whole tax year ... could you imagine a few expletives. That does not seem at all right.

That's correct.

Universal Credit is not taxable, but the old Jobseeker's Allowance is/was taxable. Although most newly unemployed people go on to Universal Credit, there are still people claiming the legacy Jobseeker's Allowance. If those people claim for the first part of the tax year, then find a job, tax is calculated on the total income, including the Jobseekers' Allowance and any other taxable benefits.

The most common benefits that you pay Income Tax on are:

- Bereavement Allowance (previously Widow’s pension)
- Carer’s Allowance
- Contribution-based Employment and Support Allowance (ESA)
- Incapacity Benefit (from the 29th week you get it)
- Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA)
- Pensions paid by the Industrial Death Benefit scheme
- the State Pension
Widowed Parent’s Allowance

So, the only one being phased out is the JSA? And in many of those cases, if someone dies mid-tax year, and the carer/spouse manages to get a job on or above the personal tax allowance you may be "charged" for what they got while caring for them in the early part of that year?

I am so sorry that our country does that. It just makes me think the sooner the better with a UBI which negates the need for any earnings-related benefits.

Universal Credit is not taxable

It's noticable that the maximum you can recieve for this is on or very close to the personal tax allowance.

I would be interested to know what it would cost to make that a Basic Income instead - getting rid of most of the people and paper involved with Universal Credit - which isn't universal of course. It would get rid of the stress too but you can't put a price on that. I don't mean they should do it; that may not be the place to start (or it may be but it would need to be worked out) but at least we should know the compartive costs.