Johnson's attempts to limit our democratic freedoms

This is off track I know but as the subject of Hitler was raised thought I would throw it in.

I'm sure it would make an interesting and popular thread on one of the fluffy forums. Why don't you try it?

In the meantime we were trying to discuss the UK government's actions.

Only serious left wing posters may discuss Hitler it seems
Avalon anyone else must decamp to the fluffy threads.
We should leave the thread to their debate ( although there is none yet.)

lemongrove

Only serious left wing posters may discuss Hitler it seems
Avalon anyone else must decamp to the fluffy threads.
We should leave the thread to their debate ( although there is none yet.)

It wasn't the serious 'left wing' posters who introduced Hitler to this thread. It was the ones who can't face what is happening in their own country, or who can't defend their government against the points made by Freedland.

There isn't any 'debate' because 'debate' involves evidenced propositions from both sides. Argument and counter argument. Despite continually asking for this, it's not happening.

Lemongrove there never is. Some posters on here like to dictate so maybe Hitler isn’t so far off track. I don’t think our current government is a dictatorship. Journalists like to sensationalise to get publicity for their articles. Plus if you are in the Guardian you are probably preaching to the converted who will lap up every word.

25Avalon

Lemongrove there never is. Some posters on here like to dictate so maybe Hitler isn’t so far off track. I don’t think our current government is a dictatorship. Journalists like to sensationalise to get publicity for their articles. Plus if you are in the Guardian you are probably preaching to the converted who will lap up every word.

But why don't you think our current government is a dictatorship?

Can you address the issues that Freedland raised? Can you explain why you don't think they are a problem for our democracy?

I will add that, even if Freeland is a journalist I have seen the same issues addressed by lawyers, constitutional experts, economists and many sorts of 'expert' commentators. What Freedland says is nothing new.

They do not have absolute power for starters. You don’t have to have the coronavirus vaccination, you don’t have to wear a face mask, you can now go on holiday abroad, you don’t have to carry personal ID and many other things you would have to do under a dictatorship. You certainly wouldn’t be allowed to make anti government remarks on here or anywhere.

lemongrove

growstuff

It's a shame, because I'd hoped for some serious debate about the article.

What’s stopping you?
Just because I don’t agree with you or Freedland doesn’t mean that you can’t seriously debate away to your heart’s content.
If a poster is very left wing they will always agree with the idea that we are heading for fascism, even though patently we are not.When Starmer wins the next GE as I am expecting that he will then that will be the last we hear about fascism on social media.Having had a long run of a Conservative government always brings up these unfounded worries.It did in some newspapers after the previous long run they had from Thatcher onwards.
If you don’t want to hear a dissenting view just say so...oh, you have done.

Do you REALLY think Starmer will win the next GE? Most Labour voters can’t stand him.

1 No, I don't, but I don't have a crystal ball.

2 It's not true that most Labour voters can't stand him.

MaizieD

I will add that, even if Freeland is a journalist I have seen the same issues addressed by lawyers, constitutional experts, economists and many sorts of 'expert' commentators. What Freedland says is nothing new.

You're right. It isn't only Freedland who's concerned about the undermining of democracy in the UK. Rather than attacking Freedland, it would be good if posters addressed the issues raised. If they disagree, maybe they could explain.

25Avalon

They do not have absolute power for starters. You don’t have to have the coronavirus vaccination, you don’t have to wear a face mask, you can now go on holiday abroad, you don’t have to carry personal ID and many other things you would have to do under a dictatorship. You certainly wouldn’t be allowed to make anti government remarks on here or anywhere.

I agree, the govt doesn't have absolute power at the moment but by the various changes Johnson is seeking to put in place our freedoms are going to be curtailed.

By the way, it's not only the left who read the Guardian, or who write in it.

25Avalon

They do not have absolute power for starters. You don’t have to have the coronavirus vaccination, you don’t have to wear a face mask, you can now go on holiday abroad, you don’t have to carry personal ID and many other things you would have to do under a dictatorship. You certainly wouldn’t be allowed to make anti government remarks on here or anywhere.

OK, Avalon

So, what if the government brought in legislation to make vaccination compulsory? What would you you do? Obey it?

I already have. Bit of a faceatious remark tbh. I was just giving examples.

Facetious

25Avalon

I already have. Bit of a faceatious remark tbh. I was just giving examples.

Sorry? What was the facetious remark?

I know you were giving examples. But governments don't just wake up one morning with coercive powers (unless it's a takeover by the military). There is a road to acquiring them.

Until they have absolute power a government is not a dictatorship.

25Avalon

Until they have absolute power a government is not a dictatorship.

Yes, but the whole thrust of Freedland's article is about the way a government could achieve absolute power.

As I said, a government doesn't just wake up one day with absolute power. They have to work to get it first.

Until that day they are not a dictatorship

25Avalon

Until that day they are not a dictatorship

Oh, I see. You're just quibbling about the term. Not interested in addressing the actual issue.

No wonder we're sleepwalking into a nasty situation.

I don’t like inaccurate words used to inflate emotions

25Avalon

I don’t like inaccurate words used to inflate emotions

Most rational people, having stated it, move on from a position like that and address the issue being discussed.

Heard on some news programme yesterday that, with present majority, Conservatives could cancel elections if they wanted to. Such unbalanced power is dangerous.

Kim19

Heard on some news programme yesterday that, with present majority, Conservatives could cancel elections if they wanted to. Such unbalanced power is dangerous.

But that'll be fine, Kim19 (I think I said it on this thread, too, because it's such an obvious possibility) because until they start making vaccination mandatory , the carrying of ID compulsory and executing opponents we will be a free and democratic country...

I was asked why I don’t think our current government is a dictatorship. I answered.