We must have our say

And how are we going to bring that about?

Oh a second referendum I should imagine, and if that doesn’t work ( i.e. Remain wins) then probably a third referendum.

I am surprised that people "know how much it is going to affect" them.

I presume they are the crystal ball holders.

I know of no one, who knows for certain how much Brexit will affect them, and in that I include a friend from Latvia, now living and working in the UK, and several Brit friends in France. I also know on less intimate terms, owners of two businesses, one large and one fairly small but both export to Europe (and import from the continent too.) They have made contingency plans already for Brexit in terms of stock and future orders (if and when it finally happens.) Their EU suppliers and buyers have done the same. Now all they want is for Brexit to happen so we can all move on.

Another referendum would be the death knell of democracy. I think most recognise it shouldn't and won't happen.

Voting again whether we leave or stay

Last unfinished sentence not needed.

It would certainly be the death of democracy Day6 and I can’t think it would happen, but there are no lack of Remainers who are wanting another one ( that isn’t a reason to have one of course.)

I am a remainer, but I agree with what you’re saying about the death of democracy, we’ve voted to leave, and leave we must

There's been 3. Years going round in circles. Just let's get out. Reduce MPs we have in the house most of them are useless anyway. I hope the churlish bad losers that couldn't accept the vote are pleased with themselves, just because they didn't understand it all. They have divided the country. I understood what I was voting for, it wasn't that difficult, rule ourselves of course.

Another remainer here who doesn't agree that we should have another referendum. And I think I'm pretty fair-minded.

The European elections was a good reflection of how the country feels....we're still split 50/50.

Democracy pretty dead at the moment.

I fail to see how another vote is undemocratic, given the parlous state of our divided country. It’s like saying another general election is undemocratic( our whole political system isn’t very democratic anyway, but that’s another issue).

You may get your wish for a say WW as, following the shenanigans in the HoC today, one way and another there may well be a general election yet!

Remainers in Parliament, those duplicitous MP’s who both triggered A50 and then (Labour & Tory) put it into their manifestos Brexit was happening, hate Boris and want to scupper No Deal (or better still, any deal!).

Hold onto your hats folks - this is going to be a bumpy ride!

I am a remainer, but I agree with what you’re saying about the death of democracy, we’ve voted to leave, and leave we must

I take it then, Sarah65, and other posters who say that, despite voting Remain, they think it was a democratic vote and we should get on with implementing it, that you are unaware the the legitimacy of the referendum result has been called into question because of the proven illegalities of some of the Leave campaigns?

Because if you are aware and still want the result to be implemented then democracy in the UK died in June 2016. Its kingpin, free and fair elections no longer exists.

"proven illegalities of some of the Leave campaigns"; some not all so who can say how many of those who voted leave only did so because they were influenced by those that included illegalities?

Would so much have been said about these illegalities if the result had been remain? Would they even have been investigated? I have my doubts and can't help but think that for some remainers the 'fairness' of the campaign isn't the real issue, it's the fact that the majority who voted, voted to leave.

What I can't understand is why Parliament allowed DC to hold the referendum under the conditions that he suggested, bearing in mind that MPs were aware months in advance what was being proposed? Why on earth didn't they object to first past the post, a binding decision? It was voted through with barely a murmur. Why, after the event that they clearly had an issue with, did these same MP's sign up for article 50 when they profoundly disagreed with it? Why go to the country on the back of delivering Brexit when in fact the aim was to destroy it?! None of these actions add up and yet some people expect us to vote in another referendum to no doubt be conned again with more promises, deadlines and failures, that are of course, if leave were to win, again be the fault of us mere mortals for not voting correctly and never the fault of MP's! Almost certainly if remain had won, the margin would have been just fine, any discrepancies pushed to one side, and any objections firmly disregarded with, 'we won, accept it and get over it'!! But the other way round??!!!!

so who can say how many of those who voted leave only did so because they were influenced by those that included illegalities?

That is precisely the point, Smileless. We have absolutely no way of knowing that. That is what makes the result 'unsafe'.

Had the result been mandatory on the government (i.e they were legally obliged to honour it) the referendum should have been declared void and then rerun with the offenders either forbidden to campaign again or very closely monitored for further infringements of Electoral law.

The whole purpose of Electoral law is to provide a level playing field for everyone concerned in campaigning. To ensure that no party wins because they were able to spend more money than the other parties. To ensure that funding came from UK nationals, not from foreign sources (and there is still a huge question mark over the source of some of the money spent in a Leave campaign).

Once the result of a vote is allowed to stand despite known serious breaches of Electoral law then democracy is on a downward slope to oblivion as all parties to a campaign for votes will take it that they can do whatever they please, however illegal it might be.

Before the referendum NF declared that if the result was less than 60% in favour of Remain he wouldn't accept it. As we know the result was 52% in favour of Leave. So he changed his mind. He is now complaining that the new EU president only won 52% of the vote.

52:48 ring any bells?

What I can't understand is why Parliament allowed DC to hold the referendum under the conditions that he suggested, bearing in mind that MPs were aware months in advance what was being proposed?

As we've been through this several times in the last few years, Jabberwock and you still don't 'understand', then I doubt if you ever will.

None of these actions add up and yet some people expect us to vote in another referendum to no doubt be conned again with more promises, deadlines and failures

Well, I don't recall any deadlines and failures being part of the Brexit campaigns but there was certainly a great deal of conning going on. Which we expect from any campaign out to win votes. What we don't expect is for campaigners to act illegally.

Of course, the long and short of it is that a great many Remainers knew that the 'promises' were empty ones. So we're not surprised or puzzled at all.

Day6 I assume that because people you know living in France don't know how Brexit will affect them you believe that they are in favour of Brexit.

Most of us who live in France already know that it will already affect our finances because since the referendum sterling has dropped against the euro. For example, my husband's state pension received in the year to 31 December 2015 was 8930 euros. The following year 8084 euros, the year after 7774 euros and a little climb back for the last year to December 2018 it was 7902 euros. So a drop of 1000 euros over 4 years. And, of course, there were increases, albeit small, in the state pension.

We also know that when the UK leaves the EU our state pensions will be frozen - no more increases. At the moment there is a reciprocal health arrangement whereby the UK contributes to our health care. And why not since we have paid into it for all our working lives.

So there's always the possibility that there will be tens of thousands of UK citizens, currently living in the EU, who will be flooding back because of free healthcare. They will be clogging up the system, unlike the immigrants who are generally young and healthy and don't need healthcare very often.

Jabberwok Do you really think that people will be conned again if there is another referendum? After all, we've learned enough about BJ's machinations and lies not to trust him completely. Straight bananas, condoms, hairnets for fishermen et etc and now the latest - kippers. He either didn't know that the Isle of Man isn't in the EU and that the laws complained about were UK and not EU (in which case he should better inform himself) or he was lying and just making those comments for effect, knowing that they would go down well with his admirers.

I've only skim read this but can't seen any mention of the figures from the OBR, which is independent. I imagine that is what the OP meant.

The £ was at 1.62 against the $ in June 2016, a couple of days ago it was at 1.24 and the MSM claimed it was a direct result of the Brexit situation. There is a lot of suggesting that a no deal Brexit would cause a further drop of 10%.

If anyone is unaware that we will all be worse off they must have some other reason for wanting to leave.

Why should taxpayers here prop up ex pats abroad? Loads of Brits in Spain are complaining about the exchange rate, the drop in their pension euros, free medicines for their diabetic needs etc. The way I see it they made their choice! They want us over here to remain in the E.U. to fund their lifestyles abroad. Sorry, but no. Talk about cherry picking!

None of these actions add up and yet some people expect us to vote in another referendum to no doubt be conned again with more promises, deadlines and failures, that are of course, if leave were to win, again be the fault of us mere mortals for not voting correctly and never the fault of MP's!

Almost certainly if remain had won, the margin would have been just fine, any discrepancies pushed to one side, and any objections firmly disregarded with, 'we won, accept it and get over it'!! But the other way round??!!!!

Exactly Jabberwok

We know it and Remainers know it. We can see a Remain Parliament (which agreed to trigger Art 50, who stood by their party's manifestos, which stated the referendum result would be honoured) trying to cancel Brexit at every turn.

I thank those fair Remainers who accept the result and agree we need to get on with it.

As you stated Jabberwok, those same Remainers wouldn't want Leavers to throw spanners into the works at every turn.

Remain MPs will be named and shamed come the next GE and if there's any justice in the world, there will not be a happy outcome for Tory rebels OR the traitorous Labour Remain Party.

The same Remainers who bleat the referendum result was unfair, that is.