Why is Keir Starmer trying to put so many voters off?

Brexit is a done deal. It has happened and we are where we are and we need to go from there.

There was a referendum and the result was Brexit and to go back on it would be further to undermine the democratic process in this country. Essentially, politicians saying. Yoy can have a referendum but if we dislike the result we will ignore it.

You are also assuming that the EU will have us back and at the moment I think that is highly improbable.

Keir Starmer is doing what the Conservative government should have done from the day after the referendum result. Acknowledged that while Brexit won, it was a very narrow defeat and that EU and Uk should collaborate to make our withdrawal as simple and collaborative as possible.

The ideas Keir Starmer is currently airing are wise and sensible. If he keeps on at this rate, I might even consider voting for him. Trouble is that would involve voting Labour - hmm.

If you actually read my post, M0nica, you will see that I am not saying anything about getting back into the EU. We didn't have to have such a hard Brexit, and could have stayed in both the single market and the customs union. If we had, we might not be in the dreadful and deteriorating position we are in now.

Quite agree.

Is he putting so many voters off because he’s an immoral, lying, cheating and dishonest idiot who doesn’t comb his hair? Oh no, that’s the other one.

That's the trouble, Casdon. It would be good to think that Labour had a good chance in the next general election, but I do wonder if they are trying too hard to keep the Red Wall happy and ignore the rest of us who want a change of government.

Casdon

Is he putting so many voters off because he’s an immoral, lying, cheating and dishonest idiot who doesn’t comb his hair? Oh no, that’s the other one.

I’m afraid that’s what we’re stuck with if people don’t have faith in Keir. I can’t believe the number of Labour voters that would rather not have a Labour government at all because it isn’t quite the Labour Party that they personally want. I really believe that they just want to be in permanent opposition so they can moan about everything. Imo we’re going to get a Labour/LibDem coalition and the LibDems will put pressure on Keir regarding eg the single market. Which he will happily go along with. As will I.

I believe it’s an age group issue. If you are over 65, on average you are deeply conservative, so if you look at the polls by age group, it’s the grans who judge him most harshly.

The Labour Party are being quite wise in not declaring their policies clearly at this stage in my opinion, because of the way the government is behaving - the less ammunition they are given the better. I think Sir Keir is trying to line up as many ducks as he can before the next election is called, and that the fence sitting is a deliberate tactic.

I fear that Kier Starmer has been very badly advised by pro-brexit politicos.

What a shame he has not got the guts to stick to what he believed and must still know to be true - that brexit is without doubt based on lies and is only ever going to inflict damage on our country

I am disappointed in Keir, and I really did give him a chance.

The gender politics issues is huge, and that applies to all the opposition parties - it is only the Tories who are talking any sort of sense on this one. A more reasonable take on Brexit would garner a lot of support, but he's not taking that either.

I feel adrift - I will never vote Tory or Lib Dem, but I'm reluctant to vote for a party who is showing such misogynist tendencies either. I know a lot of women who feel the same, and it applies to SNP voters in Scotland, too. It's a real worry.

Casdon
its the grans who judge him most harshly
If you read MN you would see that the younger generation on there are scathing about him.

MerylStreep

Casdon
its the grans who judge him most harshly
If you read MN you would see that the younger generation on there are scathing about him.

I looked at the YouGov stats, rather than relying on anecdote.

Casdon I am fed up with the canard that over 65s are deeply Conservative. Yes, figures show that over 65s are more likely to vote Conservative, but what is the majority'? 51%?, 64%?, 75%, 99%?

And even if people vote Conservative not all of them are extreme foaming at the mouth right wingers. Quite a few will vote Conservative, because they see anything being better than the shambles that is the Labour Party. Others will be at the other end of the spectrum.

I am fed up with all these sweeping generalisations about what 'over 65s' do or do not do. I think very few over 65 GN members vote Conservative. Very few of the over 65s I know vote Conservative, and those that do are very much on the left margin of support.

Greater ManchesterMayor Andy Burnham is leading where Keir Starmer is not.

"Nobody in my position should ever criticise people for trying to protect their incomes in a cost of living crisis"

Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham says he supports rail workers and BA staff taking strike action#SundayMorning t.co/NbNlJWstUI pic.twitter.com/BdCojOtk1t

— BBC Politics (@BBCPolitics) July 3, 2022

Andy Burnham:

“Of course Mick Lynch has my support”.

7 words that show leadership where others have failed. pic.twitter.com/yORE8RGn7E

— Tory Fibs (@ToryFibs) June 30, 2022

I’ll never talk to the SNP, says Starmer. That’s morally dubious and tactically inept

hat is politics about if not about talking? Politics is about the formation of shifting alliances in the country, across different voter groups and sectors, between parties and within parties. At its best, politics is agile, inquiring, empathic, humble and bold.

But not according to Labour’s leadership, which is on Monday expected to confirm its strategy of never talking to the SNP, a move that is morally dubious and tactically inept.

It’s morally questionable because we still, just, live in something called a democracy. And in a democracy, if the SNP keeps winning majorities in Holyrood and returning the vast majority of Scotland’s MPs to Westminster, then it has a legitimate mandate for a second referendum – that at least has to be engaged with. To deny not just the mandate or the party but the people of Scotland, who voted for them, is to deny democracy as a process of negotiation. Instead, it to practise politics as coercion.

Saying to the SNP, and especially its voters, “We will stare you down and give you no option but to back us, or be portrayed as Tories,” is tantamount to a form of political abuse. It will turn people away from democracy just when it needs deepening.

And what goes for the SNP is likely to go for the Liberal Democrats, who will be similarly stared down over their demand for proportional representation (PR).

It’s true though Monica.. people are more likely to vote Conservative as they age, not only based on the YouGov and other polls, but on analysis of voting patterns. Here’s the summary from the last election.
commonslibrary.parliament.uk/ge2019-how-did-demographics-affect-the-result/

Casdon
YouGov got this spectacularly wrong, didn’t they?

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/22/final-eve-poll-poll

MerylStreep

Casdon
YouGov got this spectacularly wrong, didn’t they?

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/22/final-eve-poll-poll

Well no, they didn’t - the poll suggested 51% against, 49% for ( but actually said it was too close to call) and the result was 52% for, 48% against. That’s a 3% difference, which is by no means spectacularly wrong?

Here here, M0nica. I, too, am sick of being told that I think what I think because of my age.

I have thought for myself for as long as I remember, and plan to continue to do just that, however much I am patronised for doing so.

I agree with Grany on Andy Burnam, I do hope there is a way that he could take on the Labour Leadership. Keir Starmer makes so many missteps , it has been two and a half years now of his leadership, time to stop making excuses for him.

I desperately wanted Starmer to be all that we need him to be and I'm gutted that he's not; he has a really big problem with women. Not only is he unable to say what a woman is, he's also determined that they should be silenced at the conference in Liverpool this year.

A new row is brewing within the party after it turned down a request from six parliamentarians and the Labour Women’s Declaration group for a stand at its conference in Liverpool later this year. The “gender critical” group argues that sex-based rights should not be eroded by those based on gender identity.

Among the group who made the application are Tonia Antoniazzi, a shadow Northern Ireland minister; Dianne Hayter, a former chair of Labour’s ruling executive committee: and David Triesman, a former Labour general secretary.

“This refusal comes in spite of an apparent willingness to engage constructively in debate on issues of sex and gender, including calls from Keir Starmer for ‘more light and less heat’ and from Wes Streeting for constructive dialogue on the topic,” the group writes.

“This refusal is part of the party’s historic suppression of dissenting views on gender identity and the outdated and indeed discriminatory assumption that those of us who are advocating for more discussion and the protection of women’s rights should not have a platform/voice within the party.

I cannot vote for the Tories and I will not vote for a party that denies women a voice and can't even bring themselves to say what I am.

I would love to see AB take over. I'm not sure he will though - he'd have to become an MP first, and if he tried it would be obvious what he was up to, so he would be blocked.

He annoyed me when he refused to say what a woman is.

Casdon I never argued with the fact that more over-65s voted Conservative than for any other party. But this is a broad generalisation and many over 65s do not vote Conservative.

You also described these over 65 voters as deeply Conservative, without saying what this means and what proportion are deeply Conservative, Conservative or even just vaguely Conservative.

Sweeping generalisations based on dividing demographic groups into huge groups are almost always mistaken in their conclusions.

It is lazy thinking.

Okay Monica. Nobody’s accused me of lazy thinking before, but perhaps you’re right. This is interesting though.
theconversation.com/hard-evidence-do-we-become-more-conservative-with-age-47910

It's maddening isn't it M0nica; lumping a whole demographic in together without bothering to find out the facts. I am, and have been for some time, politically homeless and have no idea who I would now vote for in an election. But it won't be Boris and it won't be Starmer until he grows a backbone.