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Estrangement

The Brainwashing Behind Going No Contact

(1001 Posts)
nina1959 Wed 08-Mar-17 08:31:00

I hope it's OK to post this here. I'm sure Gransnet will move it if it's not but in view of all those estranged, cut off parents unable to understand why their adult children treat them like they do, this very well written post sums it up perfectly.
It was sent to me this morning. Obviously some AC have no choice but to keep their distance from abusive parents, we understand this. But this NC approach being liberally recommended is a highly destructive trend ruining many lives.

' I am in the position that my estranged daughter is treating me like I'm toxic when I feel it's the other way around. We've been studying this for awhile now. Why are there so many adult children cutting off their families. These are things that we came up with. Something interesting: we've all noticed how our EC all do the same mean stuff and say the same mean things. It's like they're reading a script or like they all joined the same cult.
I have news for you. They are all reading a script. They did join the same cult.
What they are doing is called "Going No Contact". It's literally a scripted plan that they follow. It starts when they judge us as not just humans with whom they disagree, but "evil" because we don't see things their way. They complain online, and meet other complaining children who honestly believe, thanks to the self-esteem movement, that any time they were uncomfortable for a moment equals abuse. If their parents disagreed with them or made them do something that they didn't like or whacked their fresh asses when they talked back or refused to follow rules, they add this to their pile of justification. Lacking coping skills, they believe that anytime they are not happy, they have been wronged, and the person who dared to 'make' them feel bad is a Narcissist.
A Narcissist to them is what 'possessed' meant to our parents. The Narcissist is pure evil and a force to be feared and hated. They all bolster one another's justification of their interpretation of who we are. They swap war stories that are positively ridiculous, such as stories of the "evil narcissistic mother in law who wore a different dress than agreed upon to the wedding" or the "evil, narcissistic mother who took away all of their toys until their chores were done". I've seen both of those in these groups.
After justifying to themselves that they are RIGHT and their parents are EVIL NARCISSISTS, they begin plans to "Go No Contact". It is a systematic plan to discard the parents/grandparent, and turn the kids against grandparents. There are actual steps to this plan. They vary from group to group, but they are essentially all similar.
The groups talk a lot about setting boundaries, but what they call setting boundaries is just rude dictating, and setting their targets up to fail. Stuff like "I told my mother that she can come over between 12 and 1 on Sundays only. If she is one minute early or stays one minute late, that will be the end of her visits." Part of the plan is to NOT tell mother what she did wrong, just to enact the "consequence". They know that the targeted parent will try to rectify the situation. They react in a way that is illogical: refusing to answer questions, insisting that any apology is a manipulative lie and therefore is insincere, ordering parent out of their house, putting parents in that time out thing where they tell us not to contact them for a certain length of time, and then they will "review our request".
They post joyful stories of their parents reaction to losing grandkids or their parents pleas for an explanation. They cheer each other on and congratulate one another for cutting family off. Refusing to give any explanation is part of the plan. They call it Taking Your Power Back.
They claim that it's to protect themselves from the evil narcissists who are terrorizing them, but in reality, it's not about protection or healing. It's about power, control, and just being shitty. They don't know the difference between assertive and aggressive, and they think being arbitrary is the same as having boundaries.
Google "Going No Contact". You will find pages and pages of groups and instructions that will not surprisingly match exactly what our kids are doing.
I think this information can be very helpful. We can learn what they want us to do, so we can do the opposite.
I strongly urge every single person here to read up on "Going No Contact". It's like a map to navigate this territory. It even gets amusing sometimes, reading the steps and thinking "You're such a lemming". Who the hell would follow this crap.
They would, that's who'

Luckylegs9 Wed 27-Dec-17 06:45:55

Stella, looking at that site was one of the worst experiences I have had in trying to find answers to this horrible no contact. The majority of women, with views you highlight, are very damaged people who must have suffered horrible abuse and need help. it is not relevant to my situation as far removed as it could be. Please don't go there. No contact is a cruel and cowardly thing to do, to think that child you gave birth to and adored could do that is devastating, but I like many others have had to get used to it, because I cannot
alter how she thinks. I did my best, glad I had her, she bought so much joy, now I just have to respect her wishes and have a life without her. It is so hard, but others have worse things than I to cope with, at least she has the life she chose and it is hers to do with as she pleases. I know your pain, but please for your sanity, don't look for help on that site, you will just get advice from people that did not have the upbringing your child or mine had.

Yogagirl Wed 27-Dec-17 08:58:07

Stella what a terribly sad read, that poor granddad sad
thanks for sharing with us, and doing your Sherlock Holmes investigations tchwink

Mums/grandmothers, it's not us, it's them. My ND often says
we [C] were all brought up the same, had the same experiences, so how could we turn out so different!

Posting & turning to next page, sometimes doing this makes the post a bit out of synch with the next posts tchconfused

celebgran Wed 27-Dec-17 10:41:43

That's so heartless isn't it?

How could a child be so cold and calculating

Well I should know of course.

Heart goes out to them all like ourselves.

Lucklylegs ?We all did our best and not sure how our estranged daughters sleep at night.

celebgran Wed 27-Dec-17 10:46:35

The level of audacious, self entitlement of so many in that generation (20s & 30s) is stunning ? after nearly 10 years, in the absence of a heartfelt apology showing real insight (which would never happen)! my son would have a hell of a shock if he just ‘changed his mind’ about going NC with me having not having “made the final cut or told me, just ignored calls” etc ? Isn’t that the way most of them do it anyway, on their terms? I’ve been through life crushing grief

I can so relate to that Stella

My daughter sent cut off letter and ended it I will always love you
No one would do that to someone you,loved surely?
My b i law said funny kind of love.
we have rebuilt our lives but I will never get over it or stop loving her.

Stella14 Wed 27-Dec-17 11:10:56

Interestingly, as far as I can tell (I’m a Psychologist, so based on research, anecdotal evidence and accounts from patients over decades), few estranged AC were abused as children. Those with damaging, painful childhoods are more likely (unconsciously) to continue to seek love and recognition from the parent/s. The majority of EAC seem to come from the very loved over-entitled group, their injuries being occasional hurt feelings when the parents didn’t always hold them on the pedestal of their childhood when they became adults, disagreed with them, or handled something badly etc. Of course some adult children do cut off contact from ‘toxic parents’ who have been abusive in childhood, but for many of us, we are dealing with the hubris of self-entitled milenials.

Smileless2012 Wed 27-Dec-17 11:48:12

Excellent posts Stella, especially the last one and you are spot on. There are of course AC whose dysfunctional parents have given them no choice but to cut them out but as you say, the majority appear to have come from loving homes.

As is often said and rightly so, there are no right or wrong ways of dealing with being CO by your own child. Each of us must do or not do what we believe to be right for ourselves.

When we were in contact with our ES I refuted his false allegations, I have not and never will apologise for things that I have not done. Is that the right way? Well we've been estranged for more than 5 years so my approach certainly hasn't improved the situation.

That said, there are plenty of EP's who've spent years sending cards and messages of love to their AC, who have apologised for things they know they've never done or said and their estrangements also remain unaltered.

I have no regrets over the way we've handled our estrangement, it is the estrangement itself that I regret. I wouldn't take responsibility for the things I've been accused of in the hope of being able to have relationship with our ES in the future, because that's not the sort of relationship I want to have, with anyone.

We moved just over a year ago to get away, and are the happiest we've been in 5 years, happier than either of us ever thought we could be again.

Our approach hasn't given us back our son but it's given us a new and happy chapter in our lives.

123flump Wed 27-Dec-17 13:25:45

Smileless2012, were the false allegations misunderstandings, I mean something he took offense about but was unintended on your part, or are they just lies? Obviously if you feel it is too personal I wouldn't expect you to answer, I just wonder if lots of this is misunderstandings.

I often feel smaller families, 1 or 2 children, being the norm now it can make things more intense. I have 4 so it was a noisy household but my kids were less under the spotlight than their friends in smaller families. I suppose one of the things that makes me wonder about that is that out of their old school friends it is the ones with families of 4 or more that seem the closest. Also my husband had a difficult relationship with his mother, he was an only child and she was widowed when he was very young so definitely very intense (she never remarried.)

celebgran Wed 27-Dec-17 14:02:18

Smilless guess you meant like us. However I don't regret trying my best as I couldn't bear to lose my only daughter and first little grandchild.

I certainly didn't apologise for anything I had t done, I just said I want to make it clear if I had upset her in any way I was profoundly sorry and it was unintentional.

A friend estranged from 2 ac recommends no contact or cards and it seems to have worked in her particular case i.e. They have had odd phone call but no relationship as yet.
I don't write pleasing letters anymore but I will always want to clelebrate day I gave birth to her, and Day our first beloved Grandaughter was born.

The agony we have gone through since is indescribable,

It's like all the 28 years I loved and nurtured her is all forgotten so is relief to read your post Stella.
However soon afterwards on xxxx birthday I was driving home and listening to an abused child giving interview, his dad had physically abused him I don't mean odd smack, thrashing, hit with belt, really really hurt. However he still said he loved his dad and grieved for him when he died ?
All he ever wanted was his dad's approval and it never came.

How sad is that?
Yes my ed and I had volatatile relationship we were both fiery but we were so close and I worked so hard to nurture her the entire time even after she married when she had flu
Badly while pregnant she asked us to go and collect her which we did s i law was on nights she was so poorly I was worried sick but we cared for her s i law came next day almost like he resented our bond.

I wouldn't have dreamt he would have encouraged her to cut off her entire family members though.

Smileless ?So pleased Xmas went well.

celebgran Wed 27-Dec-17 14:03:30

123 flump I think you make a valid point larger families take the heat off a bit.

Smileless2012 Wed 27-Dec-17 14:43:29

You could well be right flump about larger families but
Mr. S. is from a large family ie has several siblings and the pressure has never been evenly distributed, some having more to bear than others.

We've never been given an example of something that could have been a misunderstanding, the only reasons we've been given for being CO have been lies.

Misunderstandings and disagreements are not IMO justifiable reasons to cut yourself off from your parents and refuse them any contact with their GC.

I understand Celeb and it's good that you've no regrets for doing all that you've done to try and reconnect with your D.

We too couldn't bear the thought of losing our S and only GC. By the time we realised what was happening it was too late, it wasn't just the battle that we'd lost but the whole damn wartchsad.

123flump Wed 27-Dec-17 14:50:49

Smileless, I agree pressure isn't even in a big family, I just think it isn't so intensely focused. I know big families, 12 or more kids, where the kids have had a tough time due to lack of money not lack of love and they are very close and nearly all pitched in when parents got older. In the 2 families I know one child was in Australia so couldn't do much and one had mental health problems. In both families the daughters seemed to do more than the sons.

I suppose if nothing else if one goes NC you still have 11 left but not sure if that would make it easier.

Smileless2012 Wed 27-Dec-17 15:16:39

I'm sure it wouldn't make it any easier flump. Over the years I've come into contact with EP's who've been CO by one AC but still have their other children who number several.

They see those AC's children but nothing ever compensates for the AC and GC that have been losttchsad.

Starlady Wed 27-Dec-17 15:38:42

Since I'm not estranged, Idk how I would feel about Mumsnet if I were. But from reading over there, I think Iv learned a few things. Not all these eac are estranged from their parents because the parents are "toxic" or "narcissistic," even if they call them that. Often, it's simply because the parents/gps repeatedly disrespected their wishes as adults/parents, themselves or argued with their parenting decisions, etc. (NOT saying that's true of anyone here.) Or just because they found their parents/pils irritating in some way. "Death by 1000 paper cuts" I saw one post say. Offenses many of us would have grumbled about but gritted our teeth and born, they will lower or end contact for.

So maybe Stella, it's not so much "entitlement" as a different threshold for aggravation. Maybe we took much more, but should we have? I feel for parents/gps who get co, but a part of me admires the assertiveness and strong sense of self that some of these ac and cil have - their complete lack of fear of standing up for themselves and saying, "No more!" (Again, NOT saying that was the case w/ anyone here.) I just don't know why they can't lower contact rather than going totally nc.

I also don't like the idea of just drifting away without telling the parent/pil/gp that they're cutting them off for a while or even indefinitely. It may be harsh to say, "You'll never see us again!" but, imo, it's worse to leave the gps hanging and wondering. That part's not so strong and brave - in fact, I think it's cowardly! Maybe one's parent is going to yell, etc. if you say, "I'm cutting you out!" But, imo, one should be willing to face a few minutes of drama to let the parent know what's going on.

I also think it's very selfish - and yes, in that case, "entitled." Those who simply slip away are protecting themselves without thinking about what their parent/pil will go through, wondering and worrying. Yes, they're also leaving the door open in case they "change their mind." But again, that's totally self-centered on their part and shows no concern for what the parent might be going through. And as pps have said, what makes them so sure the parent will be willing to resume the relationship if they suddenly "change their mind" years later? This "just slip away" idea seems wholly self-absorbed to me. Talk about narcissism!

Starlady Wed 27-Dec-17 15:40:32

Ugh! Sorry for such a long post!

Also, MMT, earlier, I meant to say, "Now the ball is in her court" - NOT "your court." Sorry about that!

123flump Wed 27-Dec-17 16:36:36

Smileless, I'm sure it wouldn't make it OK, I just thought if you only had one it would be a very empty nest, if you had another 11 and maybe 20 plus GC there would be a space in the nest but not empty.

Starlady I do understand them thinking they would be welcome back, my kids would know I would forgive them anything and everything but I do agree that they should tell their parents what is happening and why. I think uncertainty is a killer and it must be horrible to be left not knowing why it's happened and if it is permanent.

Norah Wed 27-Dec-17 16:48:28

123flump I don't think that ac should tell their parents what is happening and why. I think there must be eac who don't know if it is permanent and want to leave a door open without unhappiness of a disagreement.

celebgran Wed 27-Dec-17 16:57:07

Smilless I think battle had been lost in our case xxx and s inlaw had made their decision in some ways I feel fool for grovelling and pleading it's not really like me but I guess never expected lose someone I gave birth to neither did u or yogagirl or lucklegs tragic for all of us.

All we can do is move on and like you have just had happiest Xmas for 5 years,
My best friend 3rd grandchild due next July hotline news our other v good friends had first grandchild last year both over 70 so wonderful for them but pleased as I am it brings up bittersweet memories and twinge jealousy if am honest, ?.
Still feel privelidged to enjoy my twins little grandkids.?

celebgran Wed 27-Dec-17 17:13:13

Norah that is rude and cruel imo

Smilelss correct I have tried to explain this to our wonderful son that much as I adore and appreciate him I am never going wake up and think I am ok now have got over missing my daughter and granddaughter.
He says he gets it but until he is blessed with children of his own I doubt it, I can see how much he loves his stepsons and we have grown to love them too after 6 years,
And they are lovely family unit,

There will always be a huge ache in my heart for my daughter and little ones and I cannot dwell on it or would lose my sanity.

However I would be in a very dark place with my son so you are right too 123flump.

Well actually cooking today after being spoilt Xmas eve and day we have enormous gammon in oven all invited!?.

Oh back to actual telling parents I feel beyond hurt that our daughter couldn't talk to us but did it via a dear John letter sent 2nd class I have never been more shocked or heartbroken in my life, I drove to a church tears blinding me and sobbed and sobbed somehow I drove home my son was so worried about me. No one could believe it.

My sister said u did so much for her but it was. NEver enough rebuild your life and if she wants come back that's your decision.
However apart from horrendous letter full of twisted stories and lies via solicitor not one word ever.

Oh dear sorry for thThe level of audacious, self entitlement of so many in that generation (20s & 30s) is stunning ? after nearly 10 years, in the absence of a heartfelt apology showing real insight (which would never happen)! my son would have a hell of a shock if he just ‘changed his mind’ about going NC with me having not having “made the final cut or told me, just ignored calls” etc ? Isn’t that the way most of them do it anyway, on their terms? I’ve been through life crushing grief

celebgran Wed 27-Dec-17 17:16:42

Not sure what happened to iPad meant to finish with sorry abut that sad bit!

Somehow it reposted Stella bit which is extremely apt.

Norah do you not feel that children owe any sort of respect of even common Decency to those that gave up so much to raise them?

Can I ask what classifies toxic?
I can totally get violetfloss with being lied to over cancer, and other issues.
I presume that is toxic?

Norah Wed 27-Dec-17 17:44:44

Celeb, what did I say is rude and cruel to you? I'm so sorry, I did not mean anything to the cruel sort.

Luckylegs9 Wed 27-Dec-17 17:59:33

Norah, your post 16.48 in which you state you don't see why ac should tell parents what is happening, that is what is cruel, cannot you see that? All your four daughters and their respective partners estranged from their parents.!!!I can why you can see nothing wrong in it. If you were the one cut off from all your daughters and their families you might have an insight of a little of the heartache involved.

Luckylegs9 Wed 27-Dec-17 18:01:13

I do not intend replying to Norah again, I have said my piece, shouldn't have gone this time as its pointless, but at this time of the year it's more than hard.

Norah Wed 27-Dec-17 18:08:48

You conveniently leave out, what I said. I believe the door is left open without a nasty disagreement. It's not time of year dependent at all, I think the same in the summer.

123flump Wed 27-Dec-17 18:46:36

I can understand why some AC do it, not everyone is going to have a good relationship, but Norah it is cruel to just leave people not knowing what is going on. I don't see why it would leave the door open anymore than being honest.

I might be biased as I hate uncertainty, I have coped with difficult things and if something bad happens I know I am strong and will cope but not knowing what is happening is the worst thing for me. I would hope that if one of my children did go NC they would stay in touch with their siblings so I would know they were OK. Not knowing if they were happy, healthy and having a good life would be a torture for me. I may be unusual but that would be worse for me than the not seeing them and GC. I think it might be because I had some significant people die when I was a child so I have always had a bit of a fear of people not coming back as that is what happened.

I don't know how people cope. Is there any sort of mediation that people can access? Or would it not help? Sorry if I am asking the obvious, I was the mediator for DH and his mother so don't know if there is a professional service.

Fairydoll2030 Wed 27-Dec-17 18:51:46

Sadly, I think many of Norah’s posts clearly reflect the fact that she has not suffered a heart-breaking estrangement from any of her four daughters. Had she done so, I believe she may have a very different point of view

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