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elderly in hospital

(337 Posts)
mamanC Thu 26-May-11 20:39:32

I have spent today full of anger and frustration after hearing the news of the publication of reports on the appalling treatment of the elderly in far too many NHS hospitals.

If you have never experienced such "care" can and wonder if it's all being exaggerated, can I assure you that, after 8 years negotiating the whole system of elderly care both in hospital and in Care Homes when my mother began her nightmare decline,that I witnessed first-hand what the reports are telling us now. And boy are those reports telling the truth.

I swore I would try to do something to alert people to it all after my mother died in 2006, but in fact I just turned my face to the wall I think, emotionally worn out by it all and so utterly saddened by the callousness and cruelty I witnessed.

But it suddenly occured to me today that gransnet might be just the place to ask everyone to bang the drum so loudly that we stop what is happening and offer our voice in support of those good people who work in hospitals and care homes who are trying against the odds to improve matters.Mind, if one more "manager" spouts about "issues to be adressed" and "systems are in place" I shall scream. And if anyone visiting these places notices anything which makes them feel uncomfortable, please drop the polite English demeanour and speak up.

Nanban Fri 14-Oct-11 08:29:39

No.2 son hurt his ankle last night playing football - an X-ray and 4 hours of pain later and still no radiologist had managed to review the results so he was sent home in a temporary cast with pain-killers on the understanding that he would be telephoned with the result. Not!

I had a massive head injury last year and was sent home 'in the clear' 8 weeks of headaches later, I had another fall from my horse and heyho someone noticed that my brain had been bleeding for some considerable time!

It's not only old people sadly but the sickest thing about our health service is our health service itself - at least we have a voice, the awful thing about the elderly and other more vulnerable people is that no-one notices and they can't say.

allule Fri 14-Oct-11 13:49:04

A few years ago I had a friend who had spent years looking after handicapped and elderly people in her own home - she was all the things one would wish: caring, patient, efficient. When her daughter started school she decided to resume the nursing training she had had to give up earlier. It was only her determination that kept her going, as she struggled with the essays she had to write, with all the references and quotations presented correctly and word-processed to exact specifications.
Of course nurses need more advanced training for modern medicine, but it seems that much of it is designed to prove the academic rigour of the course, rather than to prepare students for relevant skills.
So many potentially good nurses must be put off by this approach. Perhaps if we revised our nurse training, we would not need to be so dependant on nurses trained by other countries.

nannysgetpaid Fri 14-Oct-11 13:54:16

I did some agency nursing in a care home a few years ago. All of the carers there were wonderful, then they brought in NVQs and a lot of them left and went to work at the local supermarket. They could not cope with the written work to explain how they did what they had been doing for years. Such a waste.

trisher Fri 14-Oct-11 15:35:52

Can I add a voice of dissent here. My mother has had excellent care in a number of hospitals. What does shock me is the ability of relatives to dump the elderly in hospital wards and not visit (or maybe only once a week for 5 minutes). No sometimes I know it isn't easy (and I have done 100 mile journeys and taken holidays and stayed weekends away from home to make visits) but the benefits of visiting, both for the patient and the carers, are incredible. You provide a link with the outside world, a welcome break from routine, can help with small tasks and show the nursing staff that the patient is not just an old person, but a valued member of someone's family. So your contribution to your relatives care cannot be underestimated. Build relationships with the staff, spend as much time as you can visiting, and you may find, not only that the care improves, but the patient recovers more rapidly.

nannysgetpaid Fri 14-Oct-11 15:50:11

What worries me about your post trisher is that you seem to be saying that the care improves when the relatives are there on a regular basis. I agree that contribution from relatives to a patients recovery is unmeasurable but many of these people do not have (for many reasons) visitors. Are we to expect lesser care for those patients because of it?

westieyaya Fri 14-Oct-11 16:05:15

My 85 yr old husband recently had to spend a week in hospital. He is normally a kind and gentle, fully compus mentus man. He found the constant use of night time lighting very disturbing but when in combination with an unnnecessary drug increase he became very agitated. The night time nurses reacted by labelling this ill man as aggressive and calling security to restrain him. The first I heard about this was when the hospital called our son at 7.30am. We all visited later and found him quite calm but very angry. He had been refused a phone during the day to call me, the doctors on duty would not allow him to self discharge and when I requested a private room so that he wouldn't be so disturbed, was told that the manager dealing with these didn't work at weekends.
I spent much of the evening visiting time chasing up the ward sister and her team who apparently considered that this time constituted their break. Unsurprisingly my husband has now vowed never to return to hospital and would prefer to be treated at home.
This is a very sad state for the NHS to be in

MaggieP Fri 14-Oct-11 17:21:51

So sorry westieyaya to read of your poor husband's hospital care. It seems to be the same news all the time, and really scary for us all for the future.
I do hope you will write to the Chief Executive of the hospital concerned as they have to look into the matter and report back.
Speaking as a retired NHS employee of many years, I know that this is a necessary think to do , get it in print . Send copies to the Consultant and Ward as well. Good luck.

MaggieP Fri 14-Oct-11 17:23:11

Sorry spelling error, read thing not think!

Hattiehelga Fri 14-Oct-11 17:44:25

I was 68 and suffered with kidney stones. I was admitted to Hospital knowing I was extremely ill. I was put in a bed late at night and left there for two days without seeing a doctor, despite my weak requests to see one - you are on the list, I was repeatedly told. When I eventually pleaded with a doctor visiting another patient, he listened to me and immediately sent me for a scan. It turned out that a large stone could not pass naturally and prevented everything else passing and poison was rapidly building up. This was urgently drained and I felt then like a new woman but I had to have a "bag" for the next week which both day staff and night staff were reluctant to empty. Indeed on one occasion the Night nurse told me to follow her to the sluice room and empty it myself ! The Doctor told me that had the procedure not have been done when it was "you would probably have died". When I felt strong enough to confront the Ward Manager, she said that these young doctors often say things they don't mean. A likely tale. The bathrooms were disgusting and not cleaned for a whole weekend. We knew this to be so because the same filth remained all that time but when we complained the Nurse denied that this was possible because "My friend Pat (the cleaning Supervisor) would never allow that to happen". The big problem was that the Sister in Charge, the Nurses and the Cleaners were all buddy buddy and there was no demarcation line between them. One particularly hateful Nurse - Gloria - was almost sadistic and I discovered the only way to handle her was to be sickeningly flattering and thanking her profusely for the little she was prepared to do. I could go on ... You will be wondering why I chose not to put in a formal complaint. I did think long and hard about it, but knowing that the possibility existed that the condition could recur and I could be put there again, I felt the risk of having "my card marked" was too great and I think this is why they get away with such a lot. Shortly afterwards I went in to have remaining small stones removed and was adamant that I would not go into the same Ward. I think the Consultant knew why, and the one I was in was different again. I will never forget the awful experience and my daughter and son are positive that should they have to be vigilant in the future, they will not allow such treatment to be meted out, especially as I am now 72.

granto7 Fri 14-Oct-11 20:40:59

Oh Hattie How awful for you. My DH has been admitted to hospital 4 times in last 18 months... My best advice is "don't leave their side"

trisher Fri 14-Oct-11 21:46:57

I don't know nannysgetpaid if care is better for those who have visitors. But I think it is true that not having visitors contributes to a slower recovery and even deterioration for the elderly. I know there are people who have no one to visit them but I also think that there are many who hand over their relatives and expect them to be looked after. And maybe if we want our care services to improve we should begin by showing more concern ourselves.

Joan Fri 14-Oct-11 21:54:54

I sent a letter to the hospital detailing the problems. I certainly agree about 'Don't leave their side' but I had other obligations so was only with him 2 or 3 hours a day.

The letter is shown below. They took it seriously and promised to send the nurse in question for 'in service training', whatever that means, and deal with the other problems. When he went in for a second knee replacement a year later, in the same ward, they treated him very very well. And it was quieter at night. I think the secret was to be polite but firm in the letter, and to suggest solutions.

^Dear Hospital Administrator

I would like to discuss my husband’s care, while he was an orthopaedic patient at your hospital, from March 27th to March 30th,

He had a total knee replacement, for which he received excellent medical service, and was then transferred to ward 7D, bed 26, where he began to recover as quickly as he possibly could. Many of the nurses were really caring people, but there were some problems.

The first night, a few hours after the operation, he woke up thirsty and needed ice or water, but was unable to reach the nurse call button, as it had been put on the bedside cabinet, which had then been pushed out of reach to give staff easier access to the drip. One nurse did see him to ask if he was OK, but he was unable to answer, as his mouth and tongue were so dry. She went away, believing he was fine. However, this night of thirst turned out to be the least of his problems.

During the stay he remembered just one visit from a doctor (a woman) who showed extreme consternation at the small amount of painkillers he had been prescribed, and immediately changed it on the chart, went away to tell someone about the revised medication regime, then brought his chart folder back. At the next medication time he had to inform the nurse that the medication had been changed – she had not taken the trouble to look at the chart.

Unfortunately, my husband suffers from agoraphobia, which is an anxiety condition that has been diagnosed by a government psychiatrist. This condition is recorded repeatedly in his hospital notes, and we reminded everyone that we came into contact with about it, up until the operation. Because of T’s condition I have a carer’s pension in order to look after him, and I think I would be remiss in my caring if I did not draw your attention to some problems in the ward, that have left him with severe anxiety.

This condition is not something that affects him all the time – he can interact with people most of the time, but when under stress, he becomes severely anxious, needs to be alone, and is vulnerable to panic attacks. Some of the nursing staff were obviously unaware of what agoraphobia entails. When a nurse came to take his blood pressure on Sunday afternoon March 29th and opened the curtains, he asked her to close them, explaining he was having an agoraphobic attack. She abruptly refused, stating she could not see properly with the curtains shut. He insisted, as it was light enough, and he was slowly losing control and heading towards a panic attack. She closed them with much ill-will. He tried to explain about the agoraphobia, but she seemed not to understand. She took his BP and dispensed medication, then ‘flounced’ out, leaving the curtains open anyway.

After this happened he went into a complete panic attack and did the only safe thing he could do: he dragged himself a to the toilet, the nearest small enclosed space, to be alone. On the way he passed the same nurse who was just finishing with another patient: she made some sarcastic comment about being out of bed, whereas my husband suggested she go and find out what agoraphobia was. He does not remember her name, just that she was young, dark haired, and was on duty the Saturday, Sunday, and Monday afternoon shifts, March 28th to 30th.

He stayed in the toilet for a good 15-20 minutes with the light out, and then dragged himself and his bad leg back to his bed, and just sat there bringing himself back under control for about an hour. Although a little empathy, kindness and understanding could have prevented all this suffering, he realised later that during the whole episode, no-one had enquired about his condition.

There have been very few such severe attacks in the past, but to give an example, one at home a year or two ago was once so severe he was rushed to hospital in an ambulance because it looked like a heart attack. The reason for these attacks is unknown, but stressful situations bring them on.

The ward was also very hot and airless, and when he mentioned this to the same nurse, when he was being discharged, she blamed him for having his curtains closed, an attitude which further exacerbated his agoraphobia, especially as he knew he was just as hot with or without the curtains closed.

There is an immense amount of noise during the night. The first night he woke up with a start, at the sound of metallic clanging, and staff calling out to one another. He managed to get back to sleep, then at about 2.30am to 3.00am the cleaning staff came on, and made no attempt to be quiet, banging doors etc. This seems to be an organisational problem that needs to be addressed, because patients need to be able to sleep to aid recovery. He did mention this to the male nurse who gave him his early morning meds: he simply looked down at my husband, and said: “ We’ll see if we can do something about it.” Then he started to walk away, half turned, and in a superior manner went on to say: “You must realise, of course, that these people have a job to do!”, as if banging doors, clanging metal, and loud conversation in the middle of the night, was something patients must endure. In hindsight, the total lack of respect and consideration was hard for my husband to endure.

Another problem with recovery is the severe constipation he has suffered since being in hospital. In the end, I checked online to see if the painkillers could be causing this. I found out that at least one of the painkillers he was given, Endone, an opiate, is known to cause constipation, because their official site warns about this. I rang a local pharmacist and was told he should be taking Coloxil-with-Senna, while taking the painkillers. He has started on Coloxil now, and is bearing the extreme pain rather than increase the constipation, but remains constipated. (April 1).

Obviously this remedial action was not applied on time: he, and another patient in the ward who was also complaining about constipation should have been taking something from the start. But the nurses, when told about the constipation, just said: “Don’t worry about it – it is just the pain killers”.

The first time T actually asked for a laxative, they said ‘alright’ and that was the last he heard. The second time was by the nurse-in-charge on the night shift. She listened to him and promised laxatives, but it was a while later that he got them. She apologised profusely for the delay, saying they had been very busy. One fellow patient went home on the Monday like T did, and had been constipated by then for 6 days. He was given no laxatives. It was only our own online research from the drugs’ official sites that warned us about the link between constipation and painkillers, and the need to take laxatives at the same time.

Most people suffer and say nothing, because the stress of hospitalisation overtakes all other considerations. But I feel you should be informed of these problems, or they will never be addressed. Meanwhile I am trying to get my husband back to normal: I have no psychiatric expertise and struggle to help him effectively, but at least he knows I care, and that is helping him recover.

Right now ( April 2nd) my husband is in extreme pain, still constipated, very irritable, sick, and especially irritable because a call to 13 Health informed him that if after following certain procedures his condition is not relieved, he may well have to go back to hospital. This is something he could not bear right now. In the end, it took Coloxyl with Senna and three suppositories to relieve the constipation.



It is now April 13th: my husband is still suffering from acute agoraphobia, and has had two more panic attacks. Before surgery he had these conditions under control, but now he is unable to leave the house without taking Valium, doing deep breathing exercises, and having me close by his side. He has reverted to the state he was in several years ago, such as waking in the night needing me to help him through a panic attack. Panic attics involve cold sweats, rapid breathing, and a rapid heart beat. He is also still in great pain in his entire right leg.

On April 6th we had to go to our GP, Dr Sucy Mohan, for T to have a check up and to get more painkillers. A friend came to take us there: it took three attempts to get T through the house door. Eventually he managed by staring at the ground and walking between the two of us. On seeing his condition Dr Mohan issued him with further medication to help control the anxiety and agoraphobia.

We were going to try to forget the awful hospital stay, but now the panic attacks are back, and can happen three or 4 times a day, after years of mastering them, which has upset us greatly, and we feel the one nurse mainly responsible for this should be made aware of her terrible mistake in not knowing what agoraphobia and panic attacks entail.

It seems such a shame that the wonderful care and empathy in the pre-operation area, the excellent medical procedure, and the caring kindness of many of the nurses should be spoilt by some bad attitudes, and a lack of understanding of the patient’s other conditions.

In summary, I would suggest the following changes to post operative care:

*Ensure all the nursing staff are aware of patients’ other conditions, and take them into consideration, rather than any staff showing annoyance and distain.

*Ensure immediate post-operative patients can reach the nurse call button, and ensure they have enough water or ice.

*Nurses should check the patients’ charts for changes.

*Consider offering laxatives with opiates.

* Try to get the air conditioning in the ward to work.

Yours sincerely^

nannysgetpaid Fri 14-Oct-11 22:39:25

Well done Joan. We are in the process of going through the complaints proceedure not with an elderly relative but our 38 year old son who was over three years given so many pain killing drugs that he was dependent on them and unable to see what was happening. We had no issues with the nursing staff who were caring and considerate to us all. Our problem was that lack of communication every time he was admitted and the failure to read his notes caused a situation where the pain killers were in fact causing the pain resulting in the need for more pain killers. We too did our research but initally it was ridiculed by the doctors and only when the ward sister looked further into it did we get results. To see my adult and normally healthy son crying and saying "what's happening to me mum" was something I would not like to see again. One of the staff nurses was in tears when she realised that what they had been doing had caused the situation. I used to dread the weekends when there were only junior doctors on and they only treated the symtoms they saw and made sure that one of us was there as much as we could be. We did not "hand over our son" but we certainly expected him to be looked after. As the substance abuse nurse told us the NHS had let him down and I intend to see that they have learned from that mistake and put proceedures in place to stop it happeningto others. Sorry for my rant.

HappyNanna Fri 14-Oct-11 22:53:17

Wow! I'm really shocked at all these stories. My 92 year old Dad has just spent 12 weeks on a mental health ward (NHS) suffering from depression. He was being assessed and his medication was adjusted. He developed psychotic symptoms and started to refuse food and drink because he believed they were trying to poison him. His food and fluid intakes were monitored regularly. He also became doubly incontinent and needed cleaning up regularly. He has now moved to a care home as my 90 year old Mum can no longer care for him at home. I only give you this background because I have nothing but praise for the way my Dad was treated. The staff were wonderful from the nursing manager down to the lady who did the laundry. My Dad was always treated with care and dignity. We could talk to the nurses about my Dad's care whenever we wanted to and nothing was too much trouble for them. We also had a weekly meeting with my Dad's psychiatrist and were always kept informed if they were about to change his medication. My Dad had a key-worker who phoned me regularly to let me know of Dad's progress. Of course, I feel for everyone who has a sad story to tell and I am very worried that my family may have to experience this at some stage.

mamanC Sat 15-Oct-11 12:20:43

As the person who started this thread back in May, could I please ask Trisher and others like her who have had the good fortune to come across good care, not to disparage the people on this forum who have done all they can to visit their relatives as you advise, to forge relationships with NHS staff and who have, nonetheless been so terribly let down and appallled by the neglect and cruelty they have witnessed. The latest report completely backs up what I and others have seen and everyone should be focusing now on finally changing things. I know there are people who dump their elderly relatives. I didn't. Praise the good practice you have seen but listen, please listen, to what the overwhelming majority of people are saying and don't allow anyone any wriggle room for excuses.

Annobel Sat 15-Oct-11 12:43:30

Whether or not relatives visit is irrelevant to the treatment elderly people receive. They should not need to have someone watching every move of the nursing staff. ALL people should receive equally excellent treatment under our NHS, though I fear that the latest failure of nerve by the Lords will not bring this ideal any closer.

HappyNanna Sat 15-Oct-11 15:46:02

MamanC - sorry if I offended you. It was not my intention to do so. I was merely stating facts when I said how my Dad had been treated during his recent stay in hospital. I gave no advice as to how to behave towards NHS staff or made any suggestions about visiting relatives. Obviously, I feel for everyone who experienced poor care and apathy for their relative and would be willing to offer support to any campaign to ensure good care for the elderly.

janan Sat 15-Oct-11 16:24:38

I have just spent the last 1/2 hour reading all the heart rending experiences of Gransnet contributors and can confirm I have experienced the same uncaring treatment both on a personal level (my Father) and on a professional one. I was in Occupational Therapy on Care of the Elderly wards for some 18/20 years and was constantly appauled at the neglect of elderly patients. More recently I worked as a Ward Housekeeper (not an elderly ward) and tried to care for the more vulnerable patients (the older ones) with the affection, time and care they lacked from the qualified staff and was very often met with open hostility for bringing , what staff felt were, insignificant requests. I felt I fought a constant battle and was labelled 'soft' by many staff members. I am fully behind anything that will bring about a change but know that until we recruit genuine empathetic people in our hospitals, all the money, courses or qualifications in the world will not make people care.

Joan Sat 15-Oct-11 23:03:19

Janan - your post could very well hold the key to the problem: peer pressure among the professionals. It certainly rang a bell with me.

I was a patients' trust account clerk in a large NZ comprehensive psychiatric hospital in the 1970s. The work involved looking after patients' financial affairs and giving them their weekly 'spend' or comforts as we called it. There was a fair amount of interaction as, for example, they could come to my office any time to get some of their own money, if they had any.

I was often berated in the accounts office for being 'nice' to the patients. Apparently a haughty indifference was the norm, but all I saw were people with an illness, sometimes severe, who needed looking after.

Until I read your post, I did not relate that experience to this thread, but now I do.

Anyway, I ignored the miserable buggers in the office!!

glammanana Sat 15-Oct-11 23:11:20

And well done you Joan for doing so all it take's is a little bit of empathy and the world would be a far nicer place

irishingrid Sun 16-Oct-11 07:44:38

I too have witnessed many appalling attitudes towards the elderly and experienced them myself.
My dad, a father of nine children, who had worked hard all his life and served during the war, was treated so badly it killed him.
He had prostate cancer which was operated on by a 78 year-old specialist, who should have been retired. We were telephoned in the middle of the night as my dad had become seriously ill and it bacame apparent that the consuiltant had cut into a blood vessel and was dealt with only when the swelling was noticed by a night nurse. My father had been complaining about the pain all day and we were constantly told that it was just post op pain and he would be given stronger pain killers. My dad never complained about understandable pain but was labelled as a complainer. I feel sick when I think of what he had gone through and we could nothing about it.
When the error was discovered and repaired he improved but died a couple of weeks after it. I went to my GP and related much of what had happened and he told me that I could write but it would make no difference.
I hate hospital and my experience of a lot of nurses is that they pigeon-hole patients so that they excuse their poor treatment of them. Those who see it as a true vocation are few and far between.

Jangran Sun 16-Oct-11 13:44:03

And over and over and over.

Let it be established, once and for all, that patients whose relatives do not visit have enough problems, and do not need them exacerbated by careless, neglectful and unsympathetic nursing.

For the rest, including my mother and father - we visited every day, and every day found evidence of neglect - not just to them, but to other patients on the ward.

We also found that it is true - nurses take a break during visiting hours, and therefore feel they are justified in being irritated if patients' relatives "pester" them about what is happening to mum or dad.

It would be a good idea if nurses deliberately patrolled wards when visitors are there, especially when the patient is elderly and/or suffering from dementia, so that they could discuss, with the patient's spokesman, issues relating to the care of the patient. I suppose that is why they do not - it would give additional trouble.

Most days, after visiting, I visited the nurses' station to try and find out answers to the many questions I had - such as why my mother had not yet seen a doctor, or why my father had not had his memory drugs, despite the fact that we had taken them in with him. Each time, I found it unnerving, despite being a "middle class" woman used to dealing with professionals. The reason it was unnerving was because I knew that the response would be of the "why do you keep pestering" type at best and the "you are really wasting our time" type at worst. I was never allowed to feel that my questions were legitimate, or that I had any business making enquiries about my parent's care. That was the worst feeling.

Yes, I persisted, but the only result was that the responses became more and more hostile - I never really found out any proper answers. Often if I were given any kind of an answer, I would be told the opposite the next day, and if I pointed that out, the nurse would simply repeat the answer she had given as if I were an idiot that had simply failed to understand properly. Over time, that reduced my confidence to ask anything. Especially since my questions made NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL to the way my parents were treated.

supernana Sun 16-Oct-11 14:10:00

Jangran - I shall be having further surgery early next year. I shall be mindful of the needs of other patients. I shall also be taking note of anyone being disrespectful and neglectful. I'm prepared to be a whistle blower. Surely, we as a group of caring individuals, could, MAKE A DIFFERENCE

Jangran Sun 16-Oct-11 15:00:51

Yeah, I know you are, Supernana. Let me know if you have any trouble. I shall hasten to your side!

Annobel Sun 16-Oct-11 15:06:46

Yes! Send out an SOS if they aren't good to you, super and we'll send a posse to deal with them! hmm