elderly in hospital

I think JessM's proposed template to Mr L is very good. What we send him has to be easy to read and to the point because he will have piles of correspondence to plough through. From reading everyone's comments to date, there seem to be 3 main areas for need and improvement - there are more but the one's that stick out appear to be:

(1) thoughtful and professional medical CARE
(2) good HYGIENE
(3) oodles of KINDNESS

In my view all three of these are BASIC requirements when looking after anyone but unfortunately each one of us I think can provide examples of the lack of each of these. Perhaps one example per point by each of us might focus Mr L's mind on the basics rather than fillyfaddling about with his proposed reforms. Nero and Rome spring to mind!

Not convinced about private med. Yes you can get to see a consultant quickly. Yes if your problem is one that a private hospital can deal with i.e. elective surgery you'll have a nicer room and nicer food. At the moment however NHS waiting lists are nothing like as long as they used to be.

Private hospitals don't deal with a long list of things. Someone I know had private cover and she still had to wait her turn for radiotherapy in the NHS. If you have a heart attack the private hospital probably won't be remotely interested in you. Or if you have other types of accident or emergency. In many private hospitals they have little of no medical cover. They have consultants who come in, do operations, do rounds and then go. If you had a post surgical emergency they would be trying to call him in the middle of his golf round or NHS surgical list.

My DIL has worked in private and public cardiology departiments in Australia where there seems to be more of a dual system and says "If you ever have a heart attack in Australia don't tell them you have private cover. You get much better staffing ratios and more attention in the public hospitals. Even though you get valet parking in the private one."

Anyway lets get writing in to young Andrew. He needs to be concentrating on the care in hospitals and not his so called "reforms". Red herring or deliberate distraction technique. Discuss in no more than 100 words...

To MamanC,
Totally feel for you, having been there ourselves a couple of times.
Rather not elaborate, because, like yourself, I shall feel sick again!

You said: " Clearly some of the nurses aren't even half intelligent."
Well, I am prepared to go further than that!
The type of people who are in nursing now, are not of the same calibre, as those 30 years ago.
Oh, I have to stop pussyfooting about, and be very politically incorrect:
They are not even from the same background!!!!!!
Sorry, it has to be said.

Also, MamanC,
Stop being cross and upset with yourself, because you think you have failed...

To Babyjack.

Definitely take up private healthcare for your GS.
However: BE AWARE:
Sometimes all it means that you can see a consultant quickly, who is still the same quack working at your local hospital.! He/she is moonlighting!
That is why your appointment will be either between 5 and 7 PM or between 8 and 9 AM.

If you do take private insurance, make sure the policy covers ANY consultant you wish to see. Anywhere in the country.

After every high profile case of neglect/abuse of children, the elderly or people with learning disabilities, we are told by the 'powers that be' that "valuable lessons have been learned to prevent this kind of thing happening again"

What 'valuable lessons' have been learned if those whose responsibility it is to care are the ones who ignore even the most basic care needs of the most vulnerable people in society.

Visiting my mother a few weeks before she died we found her in a side ward at the furthest point away from the nurses's station. The room was stifling and the sun was right on her face. She was tucked up so tightly in the bed, she couldn't have moved even if she was able. Her face was just visible above the blanket, and she was sweating and screwing her eyes closed against the sun. She whispered "My eyes, my eyes". She was unable to tolerate light at the best of times and was in so much pain from the sun and the subsequent headache. I closed the blinds and went to get the nurse to lift her into a more comfortable position as she was so frail we were afraid we would hurt her if we tried to move her. The nurses came in, tying aprons on themselves and pulling on gloves. When they left, without a word, a visitor who happened to have been standing against the open door, moved, and we saw the notice on the door saying "MRSA. Do not enter without permission."

My brother went to query this with the nurses who said that MRSA was suspected and they were waiting for test results to confirm it. As any half intelligent person would, my brother asked why visitors had been able to enter the room, (as the door was open when we got there we hadn't noticed the notice! ) Why, when the nurses came into the room had they not warned us? Furthermore, the nurses had protected themselves, so why were we left to God and providence to hold my mother's hand and stroke her head? The nurse replied that "Well, we don't know yet whether it is MRSA."

Clearly, some nurses aren't even among the half-intelligent.

You really couldn't make this up could you? As someone has said here, the fear is that politicians try to make a name for themselves by making grand gestures and whilst they grandstand people die on their watch. And the medical staff, the good ones, where is their outrage? Journalists have taken up the cudgel, we are trying to make someone listen, but why aren't we hearing the voice of the doctors and the decent nurses? What an absolutely appalling state of affairs when my mother's Consultant for Elderly Care told us to make a formal complaint because her hands are tied by managers and their politician bosses. I feel sick.

twizzle...YES! Include the definition when you communicate.

I feel so much better for writing to www.info.doh.gov/uk/contactus It's surprising how venting one's anger/frustration can put a spring in the step. Gransnetters - please get writing. It gives power to our cause. Wish that I could add a symbol for "we can do it!"

The Oxford English Dictionary definition of:

nurse - a person trained to care for the sick and infirm, especially in a hospital.

nursing - the profession or practice of providing care for the sick and infirm.

silverstar I'm about to write my letter and shall close with these words - May I suggest that either a culture of care and responsibility for the elderly is prioritised, instigated and maintained - or voluntary euthanasia is made legal...as I, for one, have no intention of subjecting myself to a distressing and humiliating demise in a couldn't care less hospital ward...

Jangran...sure thing...

PS to the above. The final operation my Mum had was in a MRSA free private hospital where the nursing was superb.

My mother, then 88, broke her leg and hip bowling. They were fixed with metal rods and pins and the surgeon was very pleased with the job he had done and told her he was including her case at a conference. Unfortunately Mum contracted MRSA and needed five further operations to remove her hip and all the metal work necessitating a long hospital stay.

There were two problems, trying to call for a bed pan and getting food. She was in a sideroom because of the MRSA and was very distressed one evening when I arrived because she had wet the bed after waiting an hour and forty minutes. The nurse said she was not to worry as "we all have these little accidents" Mum was cross as "I am not some incontinent old lady".The next time she couldn't get anyone's attention, in desperation she tried to pee in a plastic coffee mug, spilt it and got yelled at. Humiliation. They brought in a commode eventually, but she needed help getting to it as she was wired and tubed up. When again after an hour of waiting for help, she tried to get to it herself, there was no pan in the chair and again an accident.

She missed at least one meal a day. When I complained one evening, a nurse apologised and when I followed her out she was making up a sandwich meal for my mother from the leftovers on a stack of trays waiting be be taken away. I gave up complaining and took a cold meal in every evening. She lost two stone whilst in hospital and said she no longer had any appetite, but when we got her home she ate a trencherman sized mixed grill straight off.

She insisted that I didn't complain as "the nurses are run off their feet" Over the two years she was in and out of hospital, she said that staff numbers and moral had dropped noticeably.

After 12 months her original surgeon redid the operation and I am happy to report she is her usual bright self, but recently she fell after a mild stroke, and didn't press her alarm which is around her neck. Her excuse was that she would rather die on the floor in her own place than go back into hospital.

By the way, everyone. If you want to follow Jess' excellent suggestion, you will need to visit this site:

http://www.info.doh.gov.uk/contactus.nsf/response?openform

Lansley will not reply to personal e-mails unless you are one of his constituents.

Well, supernana, congratulations on making a difficult decision. But you may as well make a start on it now, given the length of time you may have to wait...

But, when you are in hospital, remember you are a secret agent for gransnet!

Jangran Thank you for your kind words. A friend has persuaded me to go ahead and have the treatment for my condition. As it is my 70th and my eldest son's 50th birthday celebration sometime soon and I've promised to take care for our newest grandson on three occasions over the summer months, I shall go ahead with sorting myself out very shortly thereafter.

Me too. Jess' letter is great, and we can add our own experiences.

I shall write an e-mail now.

My MP is George Osborne!

No, supernana, don't be at all afraid of surgery - my mother, so badly neglected when hospitalised for pneumonia, had surgery for bowel cancer in the same hospital a year or so earlier, and she was treated as a queen!

She recovered fully, and was entirely happy about her treatment.

The problem, I think, is in the general wards that, almost by definition, are full of old people, many with dementia. I wonder if that is where the laziest, most unempathic nurses end up because the hospital gets fewer complaints about them there?

Jess Thank you for your time and effort. You are pointing we Gransnetters in the right direction. I shall give the matter serious thought this afternoon and do as you suggest. I'm ready...let us do our very best to make our voices heard.

Me again. Had a bath and a think. Suggest that we send a letter with a standard opening plus personal experiences to sec of state. I have drafted something. Any thoughts? Suggestions for improvements to letter?

Dear Andrew

I am writing to you as an individual and as a member of a fast-growing social networking site called Gransnet. As a group we are very concerned about poor levels of care in some NHS wards and in particular the care received by the oldest members of the community. Some of us have experienced this personally and many of us have witnessed it when older relatives and friends have been hospitalised.

Specifically our concerns centre on poor levels of basic nursing care. This includes inadequate feeding and provision of fluids, failing to ensure that patients are clean and comfortable and ignoring requests for care, such as being taken to the toilet. Failures in this area leads to more prolonged hospital stays and greater dependency when discharged, both of which incur additional costs to the public purse. Communication with hospital staff is also often an issue for patients and relatives. There is the more general issue about dignity and compassion. We know you cannot legislate for compassion. You are though in a position to press for better basic care.

I would like to share with you some of my recent experiences:

1. When visiting my mother-in-law in a rehabilitation unit we found her shaking with distress and pain because her request to be taken to the toilet had been forgotten. She was unable to reach her call button – it had been left out of her reach etc etc This was in a unit where there were plenty of nurses who had no acute patients to worry about. Etc etc

We are aware that the Quality Care Commission is currently reviewing dignity and nutrition issues and that their preliminary findings reflect our concerns. Current management and regulatory systems do not seem to be working. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts and plans in this area. I sincerely hope that the issue of health service reform will not distract you from this vital issue.

I am copying my concerns to my MP and to the Chief Executives of the Trusts involved.

Hello again. I like the idea of us all emailing he secretary of state.

[email protected]

Politicians seem to live in cloud cuckoo land where our GPs know our needs etc. They are so busy thinking of ways to "reform" they are in danger of making things worse. My idea for saving government money is DO NOTHING. Pass no legislation at all. Shorten the parliamentary year drastically. A huge proportion of civil servants are employed solely because ministers want to change things. They are working on projects for ministers and on implementing legislation. Ho hum. They won't do that will they because changing things is what tiggers like best. it makes them feel important.

Nursing has definitely changed. My MIL, bless her, before she became the long suffering, frail and brave person she is today was a ward sister in London. The only one of 7 sisters to leave home and have a career.

Last winter she was admitted to hospital at death's door with pancreatitis. 2 days later, still a lot woozy and ill ("How did i get here Jess?" "In an ambulance with me. Blue lights flashing. Everyone had to get out of the way!") said "Why is it Jess that I feel as if I need to organise these girls (the nurses) - they've got no routine!"

I'm sure she was a fantastic nurse in her day. She also tells a story about getting locked in a children's ward where there was an outbreak of gastroenteritis, for several days. They did have hospital bugs in those days - but imagine locking the staff in and making them stay on duty until the outbreak was over!

On the subject of MIL I remember when she had her first hip replaced . 2 days later she was dressed in her own clothes and sitting in a chair. Good tip as you feel and look more like yourself in day clothes than nightwear.

You're going to have to be brave my dear and have that bowel surgery. Most of these scary stories have NOT been about people having elective surgery have they.

I can recommend a good hospital! A close relative of mine went into St Marks (part of Northwick park in Harrow). This is a large specialised bowel unit within the site of a bigger hospital. (It was originally a separate hospital) Best thing my relative ever did as they are world class experts in bowel surgery and she needed something tricky done. I don't recall any complaints about the nursing (and being one herself, I would have) and they did a great job on the surgery. One of the good things the last bunch did was introduce the possibility of choosing where you have treatment.

I like the idea of Gransnet taking part in campaigns such as this and displaying car stickers - or a lapel badge even. As a nation we tend to moan and grumble but overall don't actively fight our corner and this would be an ideal opportunity to reverse the trend.

What I found with my parents - and from talking to friends - that often the elderly [and younger people too] come out of hospital with more than they went in with. That happened to me 10 years ago and I'm still recovering from the effects, so what chance do the elderly have [rhetorical question]. I also found in my parents town that there appeared to be control of the medication. I remember finding my mother doolally because she was given bottles of different medicines and kept forgetting what she'd taken or hadn't taken. I made a complaint and lo! the medication arrived in blister packs. I also had to ask for medication reviews! I've been horrified at the neglect of older people. I live a long way from where my parents lived but at least they had me fighting their corner. It must be dreadful for those who have noone.

I began my nurse training in 1963 and qualified in 1966.I agree what all the previous posters have to say who qualified at the same time.
Nurses are not nurses now.The rot set in when the training became a degree course.What these modern nurses are studying is not nursing.

I like Hippo's posting about affection and I wondered if the staff who treat (or mistreat) older people have grandparents themselves. Is it possible that with the demise of the extended family, the generation that is supposed to do the caring has less experience of living with or near elderly relatives? I have the misfortune of living quite a long way from four out of my five grandchildren and miss them terribly when I have to leave after a visit. My parents were in the same position with my children. I'm no sociologist, but I do think that generation by generation we are losing touch with the continuum from birth to old age that we were more familiar with when we were young. Sorry, I'm rambling a bit but hope you get my point.

I think a lot of the problems come down to a basic lack of imagination and empathy; the young do not want to put themselves in the situation of the elderly because they either cannot imagine, or do not want to accept, that one day they too will be old and vulnerable.

I am appalled at the current state of healthcare for the elderly in the UK. We believe we are a civilised, caring and educated nation but clearly we have 'lost the plot' when it comes to caring for those in our society who have worked all their lives, paid their taxes, brought up families and who are at the stage in their lives when care is needed, find it falling hopelessly short of compassion. I fully support the call to arms to force the government to take this issue in hand.