Cut out of their lives

Bags

Everyone makes mistakes but if your intentions are loving and generous, there is no need to feel guilt and children shouldn't blame. Nobody can do better than their best and most parents do their best. That doesn't mean parents have to put up with shit from their kids or vice versa but just forever blaming layer upon layer of parents, as Larkin does in that poem, is pointless and stupid. Huh!

Miserable sod, Larkin! Did he have kids? I don't think so, though lots of affairs. I think that poem is hideous, grumpy, pessimistic tosh.

I always remember reading an article that said 'a happy childhood is paradise lost forever'. I've googled something similar and found quite a few articles saying the same thing. I wanted my kids to have a childhood that was everything mine wasn't. Country living; holidays by the sea several times a year; travel as they got older; rabbits, dogs, cats, ponies. Books, cinema and trips to the theatre. Above all, lots and lots of love. Being a parent, do we ever get it right? And, if we get it wrong, there's no going back.

Philip Larkin's poem, 'This Be The Verse' sums it up quite well:

'They f..k you up, your mum and dad.
They do not mean to but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were f..ked up in their turn......etc'

Ending with

'Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.'

Don't agree with his last couple of lines, but definitely do with the first couple of verses!

Oh, does he think you need looking after Annobel - can't be trusted out on your own?

Bags, I agree with you about becoming friends with your adult children. However, I think my elder son is turning into my father!

It's a funny old thing saying sorry isn't it. Tends to draw the sting out of things rather effectively. DH hates saying it. Good job he does not often need to - or maybe he lacks practice.
I guess the trick is just to say sorry, with as few elaborations as possible and not expecting a sorry in return? It is easy to get indignant isn't it : They should say sorry too!!!!! Especially now I've apologised!!!!!
I have one of these going on in the background at the moment and I am trying to decide whether to just let it go, or not.

Maybe the assertiveness course did work ! Cor; ain't life complicated .....[thanks Bags]

Not that I am recommending those actual words!

When you are known to be slow at losing your temper, sometimes it has a salutary effect to make a point of showing that you are losing it and just bellowing out what you came to say, above the relentless haranguing - which is really bullying and it is quite unacceptable to not let you have your say when she has said plenty. On very very rare occasions I have done this, to great effect. If you are one to avoid fishwife slanging matches it goes against the grain, but sometimes you need to fight fire with fire.

You do need a pre-prepared script ready to use on such a moment, though, otherwise (if you are like me) you come out with something more than you meant to say. Comes of bottling it up earlier, I suppose.

I'd feel like screaming "OK I'm bloody sorry! Now tell me what I am sorry for?"

crimson

Yes, it would work and, no it's not going to happen. Anyone who knows me knows how far I have to be pushed to lose my temper; it happens very very rarely. I also, in any situation tend to blame myself in some way.When I attempted to explain how we ended up having this strange confrontation [for want of a better word] she wouldn't let me speak; just demanded an apology. She knows I was tired and felt a bit rotten but I wasn't actually irritable; I don't really do irritable.This is going to take time and a bit of distance; then perhaps it can be rebuilt but on different foundations. Another thing that I've noticed over the past few years is how, when male relatives are involved there is a 'territory' thing going on. But that's another story!

My feeling is that once one's children are adults and have fled the nest, then is the time to allow (encourage) the relationship of child figure and parent figure to change into one of adult friendship. That way, neither side can have unreasonable expectations of the other side without it being, well, unreasonable. My adults kids don't owe me anything that an unrelated good friend wouldn't 'owe' me, as a friend. And I don't owe them anything either. While they were children I owed them everything, of course. But they really are independent now, and we are good friends. As with good friends, politeness and respect is all and it's best not to make any assumptions or to presume on the biological relationship.

That approach works for me anyhow.

You make an important point Annobel it is a two way process - these relationships cannot fossilise. It works both ways - how many times have we seen adults going home to mum's house and regressing to about a 15 year old level or worse? While mum runs round waiting on everyone hand and foot. Or wondering why their adult kids think it appropriate to lie on the sofa with a grumpy hangover and demand sole control of the remote control.
My younger son tends to mainly treat me as one of his best mates. The other one is travelling a more complex journey. I have to keep working on not replaying my mother's "worrier" script. And trying to figure out what would make my relationship with the older one more grown up.
It seems to be a big developmental leap for some people, to stop seeing their parents as strong, nurturing, supportive non-people and move to seeing them as fallible human beings who have feelings and off days and sometimes, perish the thought, may need looking after sometimes.
Crimson I think in your shoes I would try to apologise to her for being .... whatever it was "a bit grumpy" "in a bad mood" "tired and irritable" or whatever might work for you. Worth a try?

I know what you mean. I did some sort of assertiveness couse years ago [didn't do me much good] and it pointed out how we all continue to carry out roles throughout our lives. I've wondering recently if parents and children thinking of themselves as friends can be a problem. As if the roles have been blurred. As I said before, I'm still trying to make sense of something that I never dreamed would happen to me.

I'm not suggesting any criticism of anyone on these threads, but do we 'grow' with our children? I know certain people - not unrelated to me - who still address their adult children as if they were toddlers or, at best, teenagers. No wonder that, in that case, the daughter in question still takes her mother mercilessly for granted. Is it possible that the problem with those graceless DsiL who seem to cause a lot of trouble lies with their own parents who have not let or encouraged them grow into responsible adults?

Children begin by loving their parents; after a time they judge them; rarely, if ever do they forgive them. Oscar Wilde [should have known it was him].

Interesting that it is/was also known as megalomania, given that, having a grandchild seems to give some people a sort of weapon to hurt people with. I'm beginning to feel that, instead of making my children feel important and good about themselves [which is, of course the correct way to bring them up] there should have been more occasions where I just said 'just get on with it; life's like that, I can't help all the time'. A lot of my friends seemed to take that approach and less was expected of them. So difficult to get the balance right. What was the quote that went something like, 'first we love our parents then we hate them and then, if they're lucky we forgive them'?

Somebody suggested I look up Narcissistic personality disorder - and suddenly it was like a light coming on - it describes my DiL down to the ground, and in a way it is a huge relief. And then of course, I think how dreadful of me to label her based on nothing. And even more, how can that help us.

crimson, I hope today will be a better one for you. (A Keep Calm and Carry On emoticon would be well-used on Gransnet, I'll bet!)

SJP; I'm so happy for you. No matter what happens in words or deeds, what is important for little ones is that they feel the love that we have for them. No one can take that away. Ella; you're so right; the support on here is overwhelming and it's good to have people understand. At least what has happened to me has been a learning curve; maybe gransnetters who are not in this situation can learn from it in some way. Adult children [like young children] need to have parameters set and child caring by a grandparent needs to have rules set right from the start. And the parents need to feel gratitude for the help given and to show it in some way. Could we have a 'Keep Calm and Carry on' emoticon .....

SJP - how lovely! Enjoy your time with the wee one - there's a good bit to catch up on, but you can put that behind you now.

SJP have a wonderful time today. We are hearing more and more lovely stories of grans being reunited with their grandchildren and it will bring hope to those who are still waiting. Enjoy xx

SJP I wish you a very happy day, it will be so precious .

crimson Your post yesterday said it all for me. Our adult(?) children seem to have no understanding of how wearing and upsetting these occurrences are, when we aren't as young as we were. It's all about them.
It seems to be ok for them to do and sometimes say, hurtful things to us, but we have no right of reply.
Dealing with the death of my dad has been so much harder due to my family's behaviour and frankly I am getting sick of it. I feel like hiding away from them all.

Gransnet has made me realise how commonplace these situations are and the warmth of the support on here is a great comfort.
Bless you all