Cut out of their lives

Oh Nanban; you must have been so disappointed. You'd have been so happy thinking that everthing was going to get better, only for it to be just as bad [if not worse].

Oh, plus the zoo was London and we wanted to make a weekend of it, treating they two to a theatre trip etc in days past they four would have gone together. Normal and nice.

There are so many things I could say about what we have done to placate my DiL. There has been no 'row', we have asked for a list of what we [it's only ever me though] are supposed to have done wrong but nothing comes only a twisting out of all recognisable shape of ordinary events eg after the baby's birth we bought her a short pampering session, laid on champagne etc and when they got home, my son rang to say how upset she'd been that we had no photos of her on the wall and what did we mean by it, the reason for that being we had none, they never send any, and the few I had, I had in their album, and had made a new album for the baby - so hard to go into every detail but I have heard from others who have had problems with such destructive personalities and the type of behaviour comes across so many times. Everything we have tried just gets twisted all out of shape and no matter how we watch our words and actions we fail. The two brothers hadn't seen each other for 2 years and we - obviously in retrospect wrongly - hoped that a meeting in a public place would be an easy start. They have been married for 4 years and from the day of the engagement when I sent her a keepsake I'd made, sent her flowers, everything I did or said has been turned into something unrecognisable and even things I didn't do or say. It is impossibly hard to tell you in such a short space and without boring the pants off one and all and it all sounds - well I can't describe it anycase.

We were a happy family in every sense, highs, lows, rows, forgiveness. Just ordinary. What is happening to us is completely bizarre and pointless. I so wish we had rowed, and then I'd know how to put that right.

I still don't understand why, when you had the offer of a quiet visit with them to the zoo, you took your younger son and his girlfriend along. Wouldn't it have been better to go on your own?

You don't think you might be putting too much emphasis on being one big happy family? Could your daughter in law feel you are being a little bit controlling?

You haven't actually said what the rows have been about.

Nanban; we've got a horse thread somewhere..check it out. No horse in my life now, but did have one for 14 years. Miss her teribly [but not the work or the expense].

Apropos The Horse - yes, of course he bought it to help me out but he too likes the physical work which in turn helps him too. As for lessons - you can never have too many hence the two cracking falls last year and head injury time!!!! But when it works there is nothing nicer - horse and human communicate in the strangest ways and my horse never stands so still or is so good as when he knows today is a bad/sad day. And we have a little dog too! All make the days passing easier and funnier.

Apropos his brother - he has been wonderful and grieves for brother and baby nephew and it shouldn't happen. We all three suffer in various ways seeing young fathers out with their children; we all three get caught out when people so innocently say - and do you have grandchildren? or even the family dentist visited by youngest saying - how's your brother? The result a sad, tearful phone call from him standing all alone in London and grieving for his lost brother. Stupid, sad and unavoidable.

jangran - how completely right and sensible you are. How many grandchildren out there don't benefit from a relationship with their grandparents? How many of them think their grandparents have let them down? When I was a child - oh dear, never thought I'd say that along with a million other things - we were surrounded by all generations like it or lump it. But it sort of 'rounded us off' and made us open to listening. That isn't exactly what I mean but best I can do.

We bring our children up through all sorts of struggles and difficulties and the one joy of age is that very special grandparent relationship without the stress and the joy of the child is having someone able to be that person. Sorry waffle.

Maybe you are right Jangran , I'll have to think about that one .

The problem is no one wants the children to be subjected to a tug of war, but it shouldn't be such a big legal deal to request visiting rights. It would not do some parents too much harm to recognise that their rights over who their child spends time with are not absolute.

And is a tug-of-war better than depriving children of people that love them?

Could some children not resent their grandparents for not fighting to see them?

We often wondered about going for visiting rights to see our 2 grandsons But decided that that might work if they were younger ,not at the ages of 14 yrs and 8 yrs . I am sure they would have been influenced against us and they didn't need a tug of war especially as the older boy was coming up to gcse exams .As I mentioned before the older lad made contact at 16 yrs (we see him more often than his Mother does !!) , so we are hoping desperately that the younger one will do the same . Meanwhile we carry on with our lives , and I keep my frequent tears to myself .

Well, why not now?

I have heard of grandparents in Australia being able go to court to get visitation rights to see their grandchildren. Legislation can always be changed and maybe that is something that Gransnetters could do eventually.
www.streeterlaw.com.au/_webapp_810632/Grandparents_Rights_to_Grandchildren

Generally speaking, the law exists to prevent people being cruel to others.

However, grandparents have no rights under the law. Should they have,or should it be possible, in exceptional circumstances, for them to have access to the legal system to be granted rights of access?

If you are a grandparent, you must have been a parent, and I know, as a parent, that I should have resented the thought that my parents had any rights over my children. Obviously, though, as a grandparent I see the matter somewhat differently.

I do not have any problem with seeing my daughters and grandchildren, but my younger daughter, who is a bit stroppy like me, does like to remind me on occasion that she is the one with all the rights. Technically, she is correct, and I can't blame her for telling me so, because, as I said, she is like me.

However, the sovereignty of parents over their children is really only a societal convenience. Parents have all the rights just so that they can assume all the responsibilities for their children, and the state doesn't have to.

Even there, of course, if parents abuse their rights over their children, the state has the power to remove those children from their care.

In the end, parental rights should not and are not allowed to overrule children's rights. Whilst the difficult daughters-in-law in these cases do not appear to be abusing their children physically, they are certainly depriving them of the love and care of their grandparents.

Surely, in these sorts of situations, grandparents' rights should reflect the rights of their grandchildren within the legal system?

If I was giving any advice at all on this I would say, take your younger son right out of the equation. He seems to have kyboshed the zoo outing by rowing with his sister in law as soon as you all got there. Let him go and find his own life. Try again without him.

They're only brothers. They don't necessarily have to be friends.

Thankyou Jess.

Lol at the way some of us have come up with some weird psychotic label to stick on this poor girl.

You have never met or spoken to her. You do not know what her grievances are. You only have one person's perspective on this story. You cannot know all of the circumstances involved.

Yes well a horse wouldn't be the right gift for most people would it Can you imagine? I would be livid! (would it need it's own bedroom?) - but in this case it was obviously inspired. Welcome back J.

Regarding the horse.

You don't think it might have been just a little bit ott on your husband's part, bringing home a horse and saying "there, that'll take your mind off it"? You did have enough lessons before you got on it, didn't you? And horses are very expensive to run, aren't they? Do you know how to look after it? I expect you do. Or your DH will know.

I can't help thinking a little dog might have been better though.

Just thinking aloud really. I can't sleep. Slept all the way home from hol in the car.

That last post was meant for nanban

What a lovely man your husband sounds - and a clever one to work out that something like horse riding (that takes so much concentration) is excellent therapy for you. Take care, and good luck with your onwards, upwards, positive spirit, xx

nanban - "And today, he and I went off on a potter and both did our best".

Sorry, was that you and your husband or you and your horse?

Nanban, your horse probably understands some of what you're feeling. We do too. Keep talking if it helps. xx

Horses are vey good listeners imo; perhaps the most therapeutic [sp] of all the animals because they take you into another dimension; their world is not ours, but they let you into it.

PS please ignore the lines I am not at all sure why that happens - I really feel I need looking after !!

Well done Nanban, am pleased you have got on your horse , and well done to your husband for encouraging you . He must be having much the same feelings as you . This is what has got me through the last 8yrs - the knowledge that I was not the only one affected by the situation .I will keep trying by sending cards and small cheques on special occasions , this way we will never be accused of forgetting him , although the cheques are cashed but never acknowledged. Meanwhile I will get on with my life ( there are other family members who need me ) and just keep praying that one day you and I will be able to fill the hole that we have in our hearts .Thinking of you be strong .