In my day things were done in order.

Perhaps my mother should be answering this. I was born in 1958, she was un-married, my father was a married man, although (I believe) not a local chap. (That's alright then!)

I will not go into the whole thing here, but suffice to say it did not go down well, she was hidden while pregnant, arrangements made for me to be adopted etc. But I wasn't.

So, in short Granzilla you are wrong, things were not done "in order" in "your day" They may have been just tidied up so that all appeared to be as required!

It's a funny old life! Isn't that a great way for it all to end up!

Greenmossgiel - there is actually a bit more to the bizarre ending! All of the adopted children mentioned are happy adults now (as is the son I regard as a minor miracle while his sisters see him as a fluke!) We rather lost touch with the friends who also adopted - exchanged Christmas cards -but that was about it. Many years later, post-divorce, my ex-husband happened to meet the uni friend who was by now, also divorced. Bizarre ending.........they have now been married for 3 years and we all share the kids and GCs! A bit complicated, but civilised and friendly.

It does seem wrong, popparob but, speaking cynically (so unlike me! ), when did governments ever keep contracts?

I was adopted as a baby in 1957 by a fairly strict but loving couple who'd had one daughter and then two stillbirths. In recent times I've met two of my half siblings and had some limited contact with my birth mother. I would never judge my birth mother for relinquishing me, but it was interesting that when I wrote to her and expressed my thanks for giving me the opportunity for the life I've had with my adoptive family her response was "that's just what we did back then".

I do have very strong and probably unpopular feelings about the willingness of government and agencies to now break the promises that were made back then to preserve the anonymity of all parties only to be tossed aside in later years. The binding legal contract made by my birth mother and my adoptive parents and ratified by the courts was subsequently broken without referral to either party, and I think that's just wrong.

em - that's such a lovely 'bizarre but happy ending'! If your body hadn't worked like it did your two earlier children wouldn't have had such a settled upbringing and caring mother. We don't always have the chance to control the way things go for us, but hopefully we do learn from the paths that we take. I have tried to be open-minded with my own family, always remembering the rawness of fear, hate and disgust that I experienced in my teens. My parents did 'come round' in the end, GoldenGran, but by that time it was a bit too late. There always remained an awkwardness.

I've carefully read all these thoughtful texts and my heart goes out to those who have suffered. The consolation is that you did find happiness later. For some of us, the story was reversed. My background was probably more like harigran's than most of the others, in that my parents were very strict and I'd rather be out of favour with a boyfriend than risk their displeasure. Also I was very determined to finish my education. Ironically, in my late 20's and happily married I discovered that I had a condition that made me infertile. If only I'd known I might have played a far more active part in the so-called promiscuous society of the 60's!! After 2 adoptions, it seemed that I finally hit puberty at 36 when all of a sudden I had regular periods for the first time in my life. At 37 I gave birth to my son. A university friend had a big scare but it turned out that she wasn't pregnant. Strangely enough, they too had fertility problems and adopted 2 boys. Many years later this story reached a slightly bizarre but happy ending..............

'There but for the grace of God' go me and a lot of others from those days.

Oh Greenmossgiel, how frightening for a 16 year old- a baby yourself. I was frightened and I was twenty, albeit a very immature one. Did your parents come round in the end? As you say it made you stronger, and how lovely that you met someone with whom you were happy. Stuff happens in life, and yes a lot of it is our fault, but we are all human, all make mistakes, the trick is to learn by them and become a stronger and-hopefully- wiser person.

phew!

I really thought you were cross harrigran.

What green describes as her married life strikes me as part of the things that were "done in order" — rejected by parents, forced to marry someone unsuitable, beaten up for existing.....

Great.

NOT!

I just saw Dick Emery (Mandy) staggering off just then on her high heels!

Oh jangly you are awful, but I like you

Oh, go on harrigran. Do a bit of assuming.

I'll tell you if you're right.

Why does it matter? Ok - I had a baby at 16, before I married, then married the father and had the most awful life with him. I married him because I suppose I was trying to mollify my parents, who had more or less disowned me. I consider myself lucky because I was strong-willed and made myself put up with the beatings etc because I had nowhere else to go - my parents wouldn't have had me back. I was told, "You've made your bed, you'll have to lie on it." When I met my partner - who I call DH, though we didn't marry - he 'rescued' us all. Attitudes were different in those days, I know. Circumstances could also be different too. What led me in to the 'union' that I had with my baby's father was that I felt inadequate, and unattractive. I suppose I was trying to prove to myself that I wasn't either of those things. I still don't regret any of it - not even the beatings, because they made me stronger (what doesn't kill you DOES make you stronger, by the way), and it made me stick up for myself as the years went on. Each to their own.

jangly how rude, I would never assume anything about your sex life, do not try to second guess mine. Hang on while I go and ask DH why he has stayed with me for 48 years. what ? I can't write that

Wise words,Baggy - yes, effectiveness is the key.

I was brought up to believe that sex before marriage was wrong too, but some of my more liberal teachers also accepted that a certain amount of it was inevitable. The question is, harri, do you want to be effective or not? Saying no is only effective for some people some of the time. Knowing about and using contraceptives is effective for most people most of the time, as falling birth rates have shown.

I no longer think sex before marriage is wrong, if I ever did. As it happens, I did not indulge, but only because I was ambitious in other respects and getting pregnant would have cramped my style.

I was brought up to believe that sex before marriage was wrong,and I got caught up in the heat of the moment, and wham bam little H was born when I was 20. We married when I was seven months pregnant, and it lurched on sometimes good sometimes bad, for the next thirty four years,with two more babies. Did I make a mistake, certainly, but I don't regret a thing,I wouldn't be without my darling first daughter,or indeed any of them , for anything. Life is a series of choices and decisions and impulses, and we have to deal with them as we go along. I don't judge anyone for the way they lead their life, they are no worse or less human than me.

harrigran - do you have a low libido?

Or perhaps a little repressed?

Baggy and Jangly I'm with you both all the way on this one. Most of us GNs must have been brought up to believe that sex before marriage was wrong - that's the way things were then - I was born in 47. We knew the awful consequences but many of us got swept away in the heat of the moment and just kept our fingers crossed - it was fun! The pill made things safer if you could get it but that wasn't easy (and we sometimes forgot to take it). As for condoms, it was up to the lads to sort that out and many were too shy to buy them or use them. Thank goodness for modern sex education and widely available contraception.

Personally I find the best oral contraceptive is NO

What I'm trying to say is that providing good sex education and free contraceptives has repeatedly been shown to be more effective in preventing unwanted pregnancies than any other method. If the plan is to reduce unwanted pregnancies, then it seems a sensible way to go.

Places (like the US) where many religious groups discourage sex education, have higher (repeat HIGHER) rates of teenage pregnancy than more liberal places who accept that human beings like having sex and it's not a sin and there are ways to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Case rested. Stigma never did anyone any good and always does masses of harm. My conclusion? It's an unhelpful tool.

It takes two minutes of overwhelming, nature-red-in-tooth-and-claw, sexual urge, and - wham! - you've got a baby.

Don't condemn.

And don't be bloody holier than thou.