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Guilty as charged

(40 Posts)
absentgrana Tue 03-Jan-12 14:48:18

Gary Dobson and David Norris have just been found guilty of murdering Stephen Lawrence. AIBU to feel a level of satisfaction about this news?

j08 Mon 24-Jun-13 09:39:59

David Cameron tweeted this this morning:

David Cameron ‏@David_Cameron 47m

I'm deeply concerned by reports that police wanted to smear the family of Stephen Lawrence. The Met must investigate immediately

I quite agree with him! Just how bad were the Met police back then?!

Greatnan Thu 23-Aug-12 11:38:39

Thank you, jingle, excellent news.

JO4 Thu 23-Aug-12 11:34:16

Update here

Nanban Thu 05-Jan-12 20:36:02

For sure they were juveniles when killing, but they have lived their lives and lied and avoided justice, and failed to tell on whoever else was with them as adults, so why not added punishment as adults for those crimes.

Oldgreymare Thu 05-Jan-12 17:46:57

I was almost too afraid to listen out for the verdicts, and so pleased when Dobson and Norris were found guilty, at last.
Sadly, it is too much to assume that the evil that is racism has been eradicated when footballers, so admired by today's youth, use extreme racist remarks almost as a matter of course.

rozzo55 Thu 05-Jan-12 16:53:57

Good to read your comments lizzieb. No we won't eradicate racism, but I hope the people who gave the Met information [ignored] at the time of Stephen's murder are still around & will be encouraged to speak up again now.

jingl Thu 05-Jan-12 15:28:32

Good that your DD is doing so well in the Met Dee, and how she says things have changed. smile

I think we all worry about young grown up sons, no matter what colour they happen to be. I know I used to lie awake listening for him when mine used to cycle home through the town, after getting off the late night train. Used to imagine all kinds of stuff.

Dee Thu 05-Jan-12 14:05:27

My heart was in my mouth listening to Doreen Lawrence outside the court. I hadn't allowed myself to think they'd be found guilty.
My mixed race son is 28 now and he's just become a dad. I am so grateful that I managed to raise him to this age in one piece, there were times when he was out and about as a teenager when I worried so much.
Looking at my new grand daughter I will always give thanks and think of Doreen.
My daughter joined the Metropolitan Police 3 years ago. I had very mixed feelings about that but I raised my children to think for themselves and make their own choices, so of course I have to support the choices they make.
I have to say her experiences in the job have been largely positive and she works with some really great coppers.
She's had no discrimination on grounds of race or sex though she does get teased about being a Northerner!
The 'old sweats' of the 80s and 90s are retiring and there's new breed post McPherson. There'll always be a few bad apples though.

lizzieb Thu 05-Jan-12 11:28:03

Dobson and Norris won't necessarily be released at their minimum recommended term. The Parole Board will review their suitability for release as they come up to their minimum term recommended by the trial Judge. The Parole Board will consider many risk assessments from many agencies within the Criminal Justice System who have worked with them over the years, and if there is any suggestion they continue to pose a risk, or if they have not changed their racist views, then they will not be released. Some Lifers go many years over their tariff. Additionally, when/if they are eventually released, they will be subject to constant review and if they put a foot wrong, they are liable to recall for an indeterminate period. This monitoring continues for the rest of their lives.

And yes, good on today's Daily Mirror for printing photos and naming the two Acourts, and Luke Knight.

Greatnan Thu 05-Jan-12 00:21:27

We will just have to hope that Dobson spills the beans to try to get some reduction in his sentence. At least the judge imposed the maximum that he could, but I am very doubtful that any amout of time inside will serve to alter the mind-set of these people. They will just feel even more justified in their xenophobia.
It could also be that the father of the Acourts' rule of terror is over and others who were too frightened when he had the Met in his pocket may now come forward with new evidenence.

jingl Wed 04-Jan-12 22:23:07

Yes Greatnan. I've never forgotten that newspaper front page. I thought at the time, "they won't get away with it now". hmm

But they didn't in the end. Well, two of 'em anyway.

crimson Wed 04-Jan-12 22:15:49

Why oh why has it taken so long?

Carol Wed 04-Jan-12 22:14:20

Yes, it sticks in my throat to congratulate the Mail but Paul Dacre took the right decision all those years ago, and they have certainly helped to keep the case in the headlines.

Greatnan Wed 04-Jan-12 18:42:33

I am a tad sceptical about the pronouncements from the Met - it will take more than their self-congratulations to convince me that all the 'rotten apples' have disappeared from this particular barrel.
I am not a fan of the Daily Mail, but I think they did a good job in this case, especially when they openly accused all five of being murderers and challenged them to sue.

mrshat Wed 04-Jan-12 14:33:08

Amen to that!

jingl Wed 04-Jan-12 13:11:08

At last they are where they belong. I think the judge was right when he said this crime "scarred the nation".

Well done Met Police.

Carol Wed 04-Jan-12 12:27:23

Gary Dobson and David Norris sentenced to minimum of 15 and 14 years in jail for "terrible, evil" crime, said the judge. This means they will be reviewed periodically for suitability for parole and if not deemed suitable, they will serve the whole term. Dobson is seen as a weak link who may now turn supergrass and inform on the Acourts and Knight.

Greatnan Wed 04-Jan-12 06:30:02

I am afraid they will have a maximum sentence of 12 years, as they were juveniles when they committed the crime.

Greatnan Tue 03-Jan-12 21:26:12

I wish I had know about that poem when I first raised this case on another thread. I had seen the videos and the interview with Bashir, but apparently I was wrong to pre-judge the case as they were innocent until proved guilty.
Well, now we know they are guilty, but young black men are still many times more likely to be stopped and searched than white men, so can we really claim that racism in some of the police force is a thing of the past?

Carol Tue 03-Jan-12 20:07:04

This information and more has been shared around the authorites for years and hundreds of people have known about their guilt. Here's a poem written by Benjamin Zephania in 2003, which says it all:

What Stephen Lawrence Has Taught Us

We know who the killers are,
We have watched them strut before us
As proud as sick Mussolinis',
We have watched them strut before us
Compassionless and arrogant,
They paraded before us,
Like angels of death
Protected by the law.

It is now an open secret
Black people do not have
Chips on their shoulders,
They just have injustice on their backs
And justice on their minds,
And now we know that the road to liberty
Is as long as the road from slavery.

The death of Stephen Lawrence
Has taught us to love each other
And never to take the tedious task
Of waiting for a bus for granted.
Watching his parents watching the cover-up
Begs the question
What are the trading standards here?
Why are we paying for a police force
That will not work for us?

The death of Stephen Lawrence
Has taught us
That we cannot let the illusion of freedom
Endow us with a false sense of security as we walk the streets,
The whole world can now watch
The academics and the super cops
Struggling to define institutionalised racism
As we continue to die in custody
As we continue emptying our pockets on the pavements,
And we continue to ask ourselves
Why is it so official
That black people are so often killed
Without killers?

We are not talking about war or revenge
We are not talking about hypothetics or possibilities,
We are talking about where we are now
We are talking about how we live now
In dis state
Under dis flag, (God Save the Queen),
And God save all those black children who want to grow up
And God save all the brothers and sisters
Who like raving,
Because the death of Stephen Lawrence
Has taught us that racism is easy when
You have friends in high places.
And friends in high places
Have no use whatsoever
When they are not your friends.

Dear Mr Condon,
Pop out of Teletubby land,
And visit reality,
Come to an honest place
And get some advice from your neighbours,
Be enlightened by our community,
Neglect your well-paid ignorance
We know who the killers are.

Greatnan Tue 03-Jan-12 19:48:18

I have been looking at the videos which were secretly filmed of them boasting about what they would do to black people - they really are vile. It appears that both the accused had convictions for previous offences but of course the jury could not be told that until after the verdict.
Let us hope they now 'grass up' the other three and also that the judge gives them the mandatory life sentence but without any hope of parole.

Carol Tue 03-Jan-12 19:45:06

I know how you feel jingl. The Acourt brothers should be next.

jingl Tue 03-Jan-12 19:24:25

I hope they get the other three now. They said on the News that they have found no dna evidence to use against them, but they are hoping that someone who knew them at the time might have "grown up" and decide to come forward with evidence.

I hate that cocky looking one in dark glasses. angry

Gally Tue 03-Jan-12 18:49:33

Doreen Lawrence is an amazing woman. Just been watching her on the London news on the pc (in preference to the Scottish news we get here). I applaud her thanks

JessM Tue 03-Jan-12 18:43:19

More important perhaps is the legacy of this case in terms of the way the police and other organisations conduct themselves in terms of "institutional racism" since the conclusions of the inquiry. Stephen's legacy is a higher level of professionalism in many places.