Halal meat

You'd better excuse me the rest as well, but I did just google him. Wouldn't have known him from Adam!

Oh, you must know who Will Smith is, surely, you two! Black actor, star of Men in Black and many other films, became famous for his part in US tv series The Fresh Prince of Bel Air? (*Bags*, you are excused the tv reference )

And I'll repeat jeni's question: who?

jess. Yes. Cool.

Who?

Yes bags but I know another reason (little devil emoticon might be appropriate here, I warn you).
After I left my ex, he cohabited for a while with a rather unpleasant social worker (she tried to push me down a flight of steps once - lovely). She wanted people to treat her as "black". One of her parents was what they used to call Anglo-Indian. But it was only if you knew that you might have noticed a slight olivey tint to her complexion. But it was, at the time, more PC to be black in certain circles.
Which is not to say that there are not some perfectly nice people of mixed race who choose a black identity because they think it is cooler (rather that wanting to be part of a downtrodden minority group) . And I have to say - more attractive colouring, fewer wrinkles, better musical heritage... As I was posting earlier on the cinema thread, look at Will Smith, mid 40s and only just starting to look like a grownup.

I think the answer to your question, Nfk, lies in old racist prejudices against any 'black' blood, and later in the guilt complex about past white colonialism that has crept into everything.

I used to live near a slaughter house and the blokes there always handled the animals with calm sensitivity as they said a distressed animal had too much adrenalin in it's system which made the meat tough. They always stun before slaughter. Perhaps those who demand kosher and halal meat like it chewy! I certainly shall now continue to use local butchers who buy from this slaughterhouse and not supermarkets as I feel very strongly about the welfare and treatment of the animals we eat.
On the point about ethnicity - why is it that if a black person and a white person have a child that child always considers itself black regardless of the actual skin colour? This applies to Asian/white also. Why are they ashamed of being considered white?

I know Bags. So many things wrong about that one sentence. Unbelievable.

"they believe the animal has to hear the prayer". Oh boy! And the rest of us are supposed to respect that belief. I weep for humanity.

I agree JessM about both methods being stressful, and also about the transport possibly being almost as stressful as the killing, particularly now the distances involved are so long.
nanaej according to sources on the Internet the differences between kosher and halal slaughter are that in halal the prayer has to be said over each animal whereas in kosher it's usually only over the first and last animal, and they are of course different prayers. Also, and very important from the animals point of view, in kosher only a specially trained 'holy man' can administer the cut whereas in halal any adult male can do it - so no guarantee of expertise. It's true that in some halal slaughter stunning is used but in many halal slaughterhouses they do not allow this because they believe the animal has to hear the prayer.

Yes to more useful information, always.

I agree re labels! information gives choice!

High moral ground or not, there is absolutely no reason why halal meat should not be clearly labelled as such so that those who don't wish to eat it can avoid it. To refuse to eat it may or may not be nitpicking in terms of animal welfare, but it is not in any sense racist.

Presumably the same for kosher as the process the same..just the prayer that is different I understand?? anyone there that can enlighten me pls?

My point is that both kinds of slaughter are stressful for animals. I can understand why vegetarians choose not to eat meat because of this. It is difficult to take the high ground about halal, because of the huge variation of technique. In new zealand for instance they have started to stun the meat for halal slaughter.

Yes 'chokes on its own blood' is emotive but is well documented by those who have witnessed halal slaughter. The animals can take minutes to die and have been heard to make gurgling bleating sounds (lambs) for some time after their throats are slit. They are then hauled up by their hind legs to bleed out - they are often still conscious at that point. Imagine the pain this will cause to a heavy animal like a cow. They are also able to see the animals before them on the conveyor belt being killed and they do display signs of fear and distress. I think the idea that they die within a few seconds is only true if the slaughter is carried out by an 'expert' and in any industrial slaughterhouse this can never be the case (and that includes slaughterhouses where animals are stunned first, where horrific cruelty has been filmed).

Well quite nelliemoser - but the transport bit goes on a lot longer and they don't know what death is.
The "chokes on its own blood" quote sounds a bit emotive to me pammy. This is what wikipaedia says:

This method of slaughtering animals consists of using a well sharpened knife to make a swift, deep incision that cuts the front of the throat, the carotid artery, wind pipe and jugular veins but leaves the spinal cord intact.

Such a deep incision through the carotids will mean that the brain loses blood and therefore consciousness within very few seconds. This is not death by choking.

How does one know if the stressful processes journeys etc that an animal does though as a "food commodity" on its way to a slaughter house is any more or less stressful than the process of slaughter itself?

Do the meat eaters who object to Kosher and Halal slaughter also object to eating game meat. Fly fished salmon, trout etc. Stalked deer, grouse, pheasant, pigeon, duck; the list is endless. Do they insist on eating only free range meat and eggs etc.

I once challenged some meat eaters about how they felt it was ok to eat pork beef, lamb etc but were absolutely horrified at the idea of eating horse meat. There are a lot of issues here with no easy solutions if one wants to continue to eat meat at all. (Just to put the cat among the pigeons, bluetits, baby rabbits mice voles etc. )

The method of killing animals the Halal way is appalling....the animal actually chokes on its own blood! MUST be clearly labelled,so we know

Tranquillisers I don't think viable. Wish I could find the NZ article, as it was interesting - less stressful for sheep to be kept in a group of familiar animals for instance.

Yes. I do.

Do you think food should be labelled to tell us the buyer if halal, I realy would like to know please.

Wouldn't tranquilisers stay in the meat and be eaten by the consumer? Could be a good thing I suppose in volatile communities .....

Maybe we just need to accept that life is stressful.