Is the blood of those slave workers in Bangladesh squarely on our hands?

But, as others have said, why not buy less, but better quality. Or why not buy from charity shops. I bought two very good quality skirts in a charity shop yesterday. They would have cost a fortune new.

As long as people want to make huge profits there will always be exploitation of workers.
As long as people are poor they will take advantage of cheap goods.

I wouldn't buy from Primark or any company that exploits their workers but then I can afford to pay a bit more. Not everyone can.

No 'in the west' angst here. The factory owners made the deliberate choice to underpay and exploit their workers in order to increase their own wealth. These garments are made to have a short life so we buy more - that's their business plan.

What happened to those poor workers is truly awful, but blaming the wrong people won't change anything.

Exactly. Signed and passed on.

Agreed that low price is not a guarantee that garment is not made in similar conditions to more expensive brand. Which is why we need to require that ll importers must take more responsibility for workers' conditions and safety.

However, there is a difference in a way. Cheap garments from Primark, Matalan, etc, are bought often for just a few days wear, then discarded. And bought in huge quantities, way beyond what is needed, as they are considered 'disposable'- as said before, thrown away if a button is lost, or worse, when the novelty has worn out after a few 'wears'- a huge waste in so many ways (ecological disaster too, with pesticides used in production of cotton, or dangerous chemicals used in production of other textiles and dying, etc + transport, etc). Whereas generally speaking, more expensive items are worn a lot longer and looked after, buttons replaced and other minor repairs. Yes, of course, many people and families buy cheap because this is what they can afford - but too often it is just a buying frenzy, like a fox in a hen coop, because things are so cheap.

Some of these well known companies are making vast profits and they can well afford to monitor their suppliers more carefully. Of course, governments are also responsible for their citizens, but in very poor countries like Bangladesh I would imagine it is difficult for them to turn business away.

My first answer to your question would be yes.

In the West the consummer mostly doesn't care who makes our clothes and commodities so long as we can purchase at a price which suits our pocket.

The truth is that some of the business people around the world that run these sweat shops are providing employment in the main to people usually women who are uneducated and would not be capable of finding alternative work paying a good wage.

Even if our clothes did cost more the industry would still find the workforce who were prepared to work for less money the bosses are in it for the money and this is the driving force.

Unfortunately the payment of wages cannot be policed by the retailers in the West, the changes and protection of the workers as to come from the ruling political parties in the countries where this exploitation is taking place.

You can also support the "T-shirt tax" campaign www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/28/tshirt-tax-campaign-bangladesh-factory-victims

Thank you for putting it up.

I have signed up to it Nelliemoser!

Don't think I could walk into primark again. But I would n't criticise hard up mum's for shopping at the cheap places.

I know this! But the reason I "bumped" this thread was to publicise this petition...
www.avaaz.org/en/gap_enough_fashion_victims_global/?tTHlHdb

Which is designed to get public pressure on the brand name companies to ensure that the clothes they make their profits on are made in Factories where conditons of work are as safe as possible.

These countries need a few new examples of our 19th century philanthropic industrialists who went out of their way to provide good conditions for their employees. Saltaire, Port Sunlight, and a few more examples.

But the cheapness of the clothes should tell us something. I think it is.

No it's in the hands of the buildings builders, owners and building control failures.

I think the subject is more complex than the post suggests.

The cold fact is that if we in the west did not buy the goods that are made in third world countries, the workers there would have no livelihood - better a poor wage than none I would guess under the circumstances. So simply boycotting the goods is not the way forward. The ethical third world production sector is in its infancy and choosing that is a good option, but does not solve the problem; and the information to make that choice is not always easily available.

I have bought clothes (at some expense) from other more prestigious brand names and found that they too are made in a third world country. Once you start ferreting about through the labels you discover this.

I do not pretend to know what the answer is - but I am sure that if you spoke to the average Mum buzzing round Primark with a gang of children to feed and clothe on Jobseekers Allowance, she would not be thinking about whether the factories are safe. She should not have to - the companies themselves should be making sure that their suppliers provide safe working environments.

So....like everyone I abhor the loss of life and exploitation of workers, but I do not think I have blood on my hands. There is room for putting pressure on the companies involved as it is they who made the choicec to use these suppliers and they need to be alerted to the need to make proper checks.

But I guess the real people responsible are the property developers who are out for a fast buck, and the planners and building regs officers in the countries concerned (usually ones where great wealth sits side by side with extremes of poverty). How do we make these people care about the well-being of their fellow countrymen? - I do not know, but I suspect it is not by cutting off sources of employment for the poor by boycotting the goods produced.

I have just bumped this thread re the Bangladesh factory disater!

I had an email from "Avaaz " about this international petition trying to get GAP and others to insist on safe working conditions for their staff some companies have already agreed to insist improvement are made, GAP appear to be hedging their bets on this issue.

The Avaaz organisation acts to put public pressure on governments companies etc to try to stop exploitation.

www.avaaz.org/en/gap_enough_fashion_victims_global/?tTHlHdb

For those who expressed their horror at this in the OP, this is where to make your point to GAP.

granjura Yes, you're probably right - I suppose it is a bit of a cop out and I need to be more pro-active in making enquiries myself. Also, I'll look at vegas's link to the ethical fashion directory (thanks vegas).

GillieB Though I don't think cheap clothing chains should be held responsible for an owner adding extra floors to a building, I suspect that most of the buildings housing these clothing manufacturers are of a similar poor and dangerous quality. Maybe companies like Primark should periodically inspect these workshops and, if necessary, make future orders conditional on owners, within a set amount of time, fulfilling certain basic comfort and safety standards.

Like others I do not feel responsible for this tragedy and, to be honest, I don't think the cheap chains are to blame, either. They are responsible for pay and conditions but I can't see how they can be responsible for building regulations as well! Evidently the building owner just decided to put two more storeys on this complex to maximise his profits. It would never occur to me that building regulations would not have been followed. Yes, we are all culpable when it comes down to poor pay and working conditions, but how on earth does anyone check that a building has been constructed correctly.

The Guardian has compiled an ethical fashion directory

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/page/ethicalfashiondirectory

and I'm sure there must be others.

We don't have access to this info because we don't ask. I am not talking individually (although I'd encourage it) - but as a society. We could all put pressure on manufacturers, via questions to shop managers, Head Office, but especially through our MPs and organisations like WHICH, and charities like Oxfam, etc. I'm afraid it is just too easy to say 'don't know- so not my problem', surely.

It is not just Primark of course, but all the cheap labels and also some more expensive brands. Let's ask all - individually and as a society - and if we do not have the info, ASK AND ASK AGAIN.

In China, independent trade unions are illegal. The only one allowed is the huge trade union - state run of course - to which there are no free elections.

Bags I agree with you. I would not knowingly buy clothes from a shop/brand that sourced its products from overseas sweatshops. However, even though I never buy dirt cheap clothes (e.g. as found at Primark), there is really no way I can be sure that the clothes I buy have been ethically manufactured. If I don't have access to this information, why must I feel guilty? The only thing I feel I can do is sign petitions and voice my opinions - a bit feeble but what else can an individual do?

These workers do need trades unions and perhaps trades unions in the developed world should concentrate more on the implications of global trade and strategies to build solidarity with people in other countries so that one group of workers isn't undercutting another group. Easier said than done, I know, especially when poor people are not really in a position to turn down work, even when they're appallingly paid and treated.

Complex is the word. I do not feel personal guilt for appalling working conditions in Bangladesh or other places, but I do feel personal responsibility to do all within my power to help people in any way I can. The complexity is knowing what is going to be most effective, or even effective at all. My feeling with places like the Bangladesh factory is that those workers need a trade union. That's what got workers in this country out of similar working conditions.

And eventually sent the industry giants overseas where labour was cheaper.

No easy answers.

This is such a complex subject, I agree with river and gillybob. I've never bought anything from Primark but I have taken my young niece there at her request with the £20 I gave her - so in that sense I am guilty too.

The problem is wider than clothes as others have said, I often think when I buy food that the poor farmer must have got nothing for e.g. his mushroom crop because at the price it is impossible for the producer to have made a profit. I know when we first arrived here from SA we were dazzled by the BOGOF deals but we soon realised that we were throwing food out and couldn't cope with that, so we stopped buying those deals.

The thing that makes me very sad is when I see African beadwork and I know the woman who made that relies on the work to feed her family.

The choices we make as consumers affect the lives of other people. Unless the public/consumer pushes retailers to be proactive and do more to protect workers the retailers have little incentive to make changes. When I go into a shop I check the label before I buy. If the clothing is made outside of Europe I ask about the shop's policy on ethical trading: when I first started doing this the assistants looked at me as if I had grown two heads - nowadays they're more used to the question and can often give an answer. It's been estimated that the increase in the cost of clothing to ensure good working conditions/pay etc. is around just 5%.

Must say I am very proud to say that the 2 big supermarket chains here (Migros and Coop) do take their responsibilities here VERY seriously, re welfare and conditions of workers abroad, be they strawberry pickers in Spain, or workers in Bangladesh. And with regard to using on wood from sustainable forests, cutting down on palm oil and only using palm oil from sustainable and ethical sources. Same with husbandry, feeds, antibiotics, transport, slaughter, etc, etc, of meat animals. But yes, that does mean you can't buy 2 large chickens for a 5er here.

A huge amount of food is wasted in the UK because it is 'too' cheap- and not respected. 2 for 1 offers are the worst- as people can't resist them and then second chicken or 2nd bag of fruit and veg gets thrown away (rather than frozen, or cooked and kept in fridge, etc. Left overs are thrown away - hardly anybody makes stock with bones, etc. Cheap = no respect too often. Be it clothes, be it food.