Illegal immigration - what to do?

Yes I would too Nellie.
POGS I lived in a town with many immigrants and I worked for many years in another town where the children in our schools spoke 37 different languages. Improving the achievement of children from ethnic minorities was a major part of my work.
I am well aware that immigration can bring challenges to communities but I do not share your negative views of the consequences. Nor did the vast majority of the people I worked with.
I am of course now an immigrant myself.
Is that plain enough?

Well that's one definite reply so far mine makes two.

As far as I can see this question is really the crux of the issue.

Does anyone else who has seen this post want to respond to this particular point? Ana Pogs any opinions?

Wait until others come back from Sunday lunch.

Jess M

I live in Leicestershire. I lived and worked in the city of Leicester years ago until I married. I still have many good friends, ex work mates and a reduced social life there.

Yes I do speak as I find. I do speak as I observe. Yes I do listen, not those who have no contact with the issues but to those who do live with the consequences.

As I say you have to walk the walk to talk the talk and I am listening to those who do just that.

Yes, I would do what I could for myself and my family, even if it meant moving hundreds or thousands of miles away to protect them from violence or prevent them living in the most extreme poverty. No, we aren't going to shift the attitudes of violent and corrupt governments quickly enough to solve the problem of mass migration in this direction, but we can trade responsibly, provide aid and help where possible, sometimes at inconvenience to ourselves.

when has, for a start. And I expect a lot would say the same, Nelliemoser.

"As far as I can see, no one on this thread has" actually said what they would do if they were living in a country that had poor living standards and few job prospects and had a chance to move elsewhere?

As far as I can see, no one on this thread has said they 'don't want immigrants'. There has been some support for more control over the numbers entering the UK, that's all.

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/30/work-ensure-syrians-get-aid
These Syrians do not seem in any state to organise an uprising in their own country. If we do not want immigrants, we should at least be able to ensure we get aid to them in their own countries. Of course, some of you want to cut the aid budget too. Is it the same people who do not want immigrants?

Do you live in an area of high immigration Pogs and how does it affect you? Often you argue in a "stands to reason" manner without presenting evidence, either personal or statistical.

Exactly, Ana it will tail off, as it has in the past and migrants will find somewhere offering better conditions or they'll prefer to join family who have settled elsewhere. The world is constantly changing and the countries our forefathers would have emigrated to became less attractive for a variety of reasons. The patterns of emigration from here in the UK are constantly changing, too.

But it's not a case of NIMBYism. Yes, most of us are probably descended from immigrants, but I don't see why that makes any difference to the situation here and now.

No one's talking about mass deportation of already-settled immigrants, but if we keep our doors wide open and welcome all those looking for a better life in this country the time will come when they won't even get that, as there won't be enough jobs, homes or educational establishments to cope with the population.

Ok! what would you try to do for your families if you lived in such countries? put up with it or try to find somewhere better.

Think the Irish potato famine. Are there many on GN with Irish descent? Should we send them back? They were hated and despised when they came over here.

On the other hand, migration around the world, away from oppression, extreme poverty and ruling despots, is exactly what I would do - and so did millions of others before this current flare-up about immigration. Who am I to pull up the drawbridge and watch from a distance as others struggle to provide for their families? Who would stay around if we were faced with those circumstances, especially if we had relatives in another country who could help us?

Yes, we need to find a way through it, but not as hostile NIMBYs. My ancestors arrived in this country from near and far and helped to make it the supposedly tolerant country it is today. I live in a city which is one of the most diverse and culturally rich in the country. Their families live, work, shop, worship and take their leisure alongside me, in my neighbourhood. They're just like us, and different. Not a threat. Extremists and terrorists are a threat, wherever they come from.

Well said, POGS, Bravo!

It s however stating the bleeding obvious surely.

Conditions in the countries where people are worse off are not going to change, the government's have no interest in democracy , in most cases they are corrupt and self serving b------s who don't give a toss about their population.

If you think that we should take on the population of all those countries just because they will be better off here then frankly I just think that is naive. It is trying to shovel the problems under the carpet but in the meantime things go from bad to worse for those living in countries where immigration is already causing a divide in the populas. Hence the rise of UKIp.

At the end of the day after watching one thread after another it is obvious there is a divide that will not be bridged either on GN or in the country because we all have so varied views on immigration.

1 person might say there is a climate of fear being used when immigration is spoken of. Another person will say there is no problem at all we should welcome the world with open arms. Another will say immigration is good, it has no drawbacks and those who don't agree are racist bigots.

However, 1 person might say I am already living day to day with the consequences of mass immigration and it does make me afraid of the future. Another might say I have to deal with consequences of immigration, you are lucky enough to only be 'talking about it'. Another will say I am not racist nor a bigot but I am a realist and I don't like what I see.

It is a massive problem, if only because of the divide it causes. It should and must be looked at, debated and for years this has not been the case because 'it was not a very nice thing to do'. Now we are where we are it is pure stupidity to carry on in the same way

Immigration is a problem for not only the indigenous population but for those who have successfully settled here. If we are not careful the only outcome will be even more voters turning to the far left and far right parties and that is probably the most fearful of all. This time it will not be down to the usual narcasissm of one man it will be down to the mass view of the people and God knows where that could end in decades to come if this subject is allowed to fester and not be dealth with.

Migration from one area of the world to another - in pursuit of a better life or in response to danger - is how the human race has evolved.

But couldn't it be argued that if the world was as sparsely populated as it was when the original migrations began, it wouldn't be a problem as it wasn't then; the world is heavily populated and when too many descend on certain countries looking for a better life, it inevitably affects those already living there by reducing job opportunities, encouraging some employers to become, shall we say, a little unscrupulous, due to housing shortages it pushes up the cost of rentals and house prices as they become a scarce commodity.

Some countries do not have infinite capacity - so which is the route to take? To allow anyone who wants/needs to take up residence in any country they choose or limit the intakes to what the country can handle?

Well not particularly. All Europeans, Asians etc, are descended from Africans who left Eastern Africa - where they human race evolved. So go back far enough and all your ancestors at that far off time must have been African

Jess are you talking about Mitochondrial Eve?

yes quite, otherwise our ancestors would have never left Africa. Thought for the day - every one of us non-Africans is descended from African migrants.

Illegal immigrants would not be able to claim benefits and are vulnerable in many ways - exploited by slum landlords and unscrupulous employers, unable to get medical care, etc., etc.

Asylum seekers are not allowed to work so have no option but to receive benefit - and I believe they can only receive flat rate benefit.

I too don't like the term "illegals".

Perhaps if conditions in their own countries were better, there wouldn't be such a push to migrate to more affluent countries. If I were, for instance, a person from Bangladesh, working long hours in one of those awful clothing factories, I too would do my best to find a better life somewhere else.

Migration from one area of the world to another - in pursuit of a better life or in response to danger - is how the human race has evolved.

FlicketyB - I do read your posts carefully.

I would not, in any way, shape or form, present myself as an expert on the problems of those countries which is why I was happy to take the word of an expert in his field as I could see no reason why he would mislead his students, let alone anyone else.

The alternative, it seems, is for those people to either do nothing or leave and cause upset in other countries when the systems of other countries become overloaded - akin to sinking the lifeboat. Given the recent voting results (plus countries outside the EU already have strict limits on immigration), I don't think the latter is advisable.

Holly, please read my posts carefully, you keep misinterpreting what I have written.

Professor Zones may be very highly thought of, respected etc etc but this doesn't stop him being factually wrong in the article you give a link to, not to mention, listing the successes but not mentioning any failures.

Having gone through his list country by country I can not find a single example of a popular uprising overthrowing a strongly entrenched and powerful government. In many cases (Bolivia, Phillipines, Serbia) the countries had functioning democracies and legally functioning oppositions, but corrupt presidents, that were ousted by effective opposition with popular support.

In Eastern Europe almost every country had tried the non-violent uprising route when the USSR was strong and powerful(Hungary, 1956, Czechoslovakia, 1968, Poland 1956, 1968) without success. They only succeeded when the USSR had collapsed economically and inherent weaknesses made it unable to respond.

To quote 'Africa' and 'Latin America', both big continents with many countries, is begging the issue. In South Africa there were many popular uprisings when South Africa in the apartheid era, when the economy and the government was strong and all were put down. It was only when the international boycott broke the South African economy and isolated it from the rest of the world that the movement to democracy succeeded. Strong, uprisings didn't work. weak, they did.

Then he quotes the Arab Spring. Do you have any idea what countries he is talking about? I don't Libya? a violent government overthrow and continuing fighting between warring factions. Egypt? once again under a military dictatorship. Syria? a violent uprising taken over by foreign extremists and which the government is now winning. Tunisia is still in political turmoil with deaths and assassinations. Morocco was shaken but unstirred, despite popular protests

Professor Zones' article provides no evidence that non-violent resistance works when it is dealing with strong entrenched regimes. It only works when it is dealing with a weak regime which is on the way out anyway.

And to go back to the start of this discussion. Most of the illegal immigrants coming to Europe are fleeing countries riven by civil war and insurrection and threatened by famine. Quite how do the ordinary Syrians, for example, start a non-violent uprising that overthrows their government, Oh, I forgot - that is just what they did try.

Good posts from Flickety, Granjura and Deeda.
Jingle's comment that not all asylum seekers/immigrants are saints is true of the inhabitants of the countries which they are attempting to settle in. I don't know which of the desperate people will mug someone Jingle, and I don't know who amongst the asylum seekers will contribute hugely to the country offering them a home.
I had the privilege of working with a number of Manchester's Jewish community over many years. Some of them bore the number tattooed on them on arrival at a concentration camp, some had arrived on the Kinder transport. Yes, I agree not all of the Jewish refugees escaping Nazi Germany, or programs earlier in the 20th century have made good, but I do know a large number who did. They and their families continue to contribute to the social and economic welfare of this country. They also love, and are loyal to this country which gave them refuge. Apologies if this personal and heart felt comment offends anybody.

I accept the fears people express about the impact on our public, especially health services of what seems like an increase in immigration/asylum seeking etc. Diplomacy and sanctions seem increasingly important on a political front. Also, greater efficiency in knowing who is living in this country.

When you look at the boat loads of refugees landing at Lampedusa do they look capable of organising any sort of uprising in their own country? To be desperate enough to set to sea in unsuitable, overloaded boats, half starved and with only what they can carry suggests that they have given up all hope of being able to help themselves. What the rest of the world can do about it is completely beyond me.

You could say that the UK has become a victim of its much better treatment of immmigrants and asylum seekers (although I wouldn't)

The mayor of Calais put the blame firmly on Britain, in 2009, for the problems that Calais faces:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/5187032/Calais-mayor-blames-Britain-for-immigration-problems.html