Illegal immigration - what to do?

Jess are you talking about Mitochondrial Eve?

Well not particularly. All Europeans, Asians etc, are descended from Africans who left Eastern Africa - where they human race evolved. So go back far enough and all your ancestors at that far off time must have been African

Migration from one area of the world to another - in pursuit of a better life or in response to danger - is how the human race has evolved.

But couldn't it be argued that if the world was as sparsely populated as it was when the original migrations began, it wouldn't be a problem as it wasn't then; the world is heavily populated and when too many descend on certain countries looking for a better life, it inevitably affects those already living there by reducing job opportunities, encouraging some employers to become, shall we say, a little unscrupulous, due to housing shortages it pushes up the cost of rentals and house prices as they become a scarce commodity.

Some countries do not have infinite capacity - so which is the route to take? To allow anyone who wants/needs to take up residence in any country they choose or limit the intakes to what the country can handle?

It s however stating the bleeding obvious surely.

Conditions in the countries where people are worse off are not going to change, the government's have no interest in democracy , in most cases they are corrupt and self serving b------s who don't give a toss about their population.

If you think that we should take on the population of all those countries just because they will be better off here then frankly I just think that is naive. It is trying to shovel the problems under the carpet but in the meantime things go from bad to worse for those living in countries where immigration is already causing a divide in the populas. Hence the rise of UKIp.

At the end of the day after watching one thread after another it is obvious there is a divide that will not be bridged either on GN or in the country because we all have so varied views on immigration.

1 person might say there is a climate of fear being used when immigration is spoken of. Another person will say there is no problem at all we should welcome the world with open arms. Another will say immigration is good, it has no drawbacks and those who don't agree are racist bigots.

However, 1 person might say I am already living day to day with the consequences of mass immigration and it does make me afraid of the future. Another might say I have to deal with consequences of immigration, you are lucky enough to only be 'talking about it'. Another will say I am not racist nor a bigot but I am a realist and I don't like what I see.

It is a massive problem, if only because of the divide it causes. It should and must be looked at, debated and for years this has not been the case because 'it was not a very nice thing to do'. Now we are where we are it is pure stupidity to carry on in the same way

Immigration is a problem for not only the indigenous population but for those who have successfully settled here. If we are not careful the only outcome will be even more voters turning to the far left and far right parties and that is probably the most fearful of all. This time it will not be down to the usual narcasissm of one man it will be down to the mass view of the people and God knows where that could end in decades to come if this subject is allowed to fester and not be dealth with.

Well said, POGS, Bravo!

On the other hand, migration around the world, away from oppression, extreme poverty and ruling despots, is exactly what I would do - and so did millions of others before this current flare-up about immigration. Who am I to pull up the drawbridge and watch from a distance as others struggle to provide for their families? Who would stay around if we were faced with those circumstances, especially if we had relatives in another country who could help us?

Yes, we need to find a way through it, but not as hostile NIMBYs. My ancestors arrived in this country from near and far and helped to make it the supposedly tolerant country it is today. I live in a city which is one of the most diverse and culturally rich in the country. Their families live, work, shop, worship and take their leisure alongside me, in my neighbourhood. They're just like us, and different. Not a threat. Extremists and terrorists are a threat, wherever they come from.

Ok! what would you try to do for your families if you lived in such countries? put up with it or try to find somewhere better.

Think the Irish potato famine. Are there many on GN with Irish descent? Should we send them back? They were hated and despised when they came over here.

But it's not a case of NIMBYism. Yes, most of us are probably descended from immigrants, but I don't see why that makes any difference to the situation here and now.

No one's talking about mass deportation of already-settled immigrants, but if we keep our doors wide open and welcome all those looking for a better life in this country the time will come when they won't even get that, as there won't be enough jobs, homes or educational establishments to cope with the population.

Exactly, Ana it will tail off, as it has in the past and migrants will find somewhere offering better conditions or they'll prefer to join family who have settled elsewhere. The world is constantly changing and the countries our forefathers would have emigrated to became less attractive for a variety of reasons. The patterns of emigration from here in the UK are constantly changing, too.

Do you live in an area of high immigration Pogs and how does it affect you? Often you argue in a "stands to reason" manner without presenting evidence, either personal or statistical.

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/30/work-ensure-syrians-get-aid
These Syrians do not seem in any state to organise an uprising in their own country. If we do not want immigrants, we should at least be able to ensure we get aid to them in their own countries. Of course, some of you want to cut the aid budget too. Is it the same people who do not want immigrants?

As far as I can see, no one on this thread has said they 'don't want immigrants'. There has been some support for more control over the numbers entering the UK, that's all.

"As far as I can see, no one on this thread has" actually said what they would do if they were living in a country that had poor living standards and few job prospects and had a chance to move elsewhere?

when has, for a start. And I expect a lot would say the same, Nelliemoser.

Yes, I would do what I could for myself and my family, even if it meant moving hundreds or thousands of miles away to protect them from violence or prevent them living in the most extreme poverty. No, we aren't going to shift the attitudes of violent and corrupt governments quickly enough to solve the problem of mass migration in this direction, but we can trade responsibly, provide aid and help where possible, sometimes at inconvenience to ourselves.

Jess M

I live in Leicestershire. I lived and worked in the city of Leicester years ago until I married. I still have many good friends, ex work mates and a reduced social life there.

Yes I do speak as I find. I do speak as I observe. Yes I do listen, not those who have no contact with the issues but to those who do live with the consequences.

As I say you have to walk the walk to talk the talk and I am listening to those who do just that.

Well that's one definite reply so far mine makes two.

As far as I can see this question is really the crux of the issue.

Does anyone else who has seen this post want to respond to this particular point? Ana Pogs any opinions?

Wait until others come back from Sunday lunch.

Yes I would too Nellie.
POGS I lived in a town with many immigrants and I worked for many years in another town where the children in our schools spoke 37 different languages. Improving the achievement of children from ethnic minorities was a major part of my work.
I am well aware that immigration can bring challenges to communities but I do not share your negative views of the consequences. Nor did the vast majority of the people I worked with.
I am of course now an immigrant myself.
Is that plain enough?

Excellent and realistic post POGS.

Well said, Mamie. Both my sons partners are immigrants, one from Denmark and one from Spain. I have lived in lots of cities where there are immigrants and have taught a good many.
I have no problem with immigrants, and have not met many who do not work hard. I have lived next door to Polish and Ugandans and shared a house with West indians.
The problem I have is with people who exploit immigrants and would deny them their right to live in a decent society because of the accident of their birth.

when I agree that some of us, if living in a poor country, would try to get to somewhere else where the standard of living was higher.

However, is it realistic to expect a richer country to allow uncontrolled immigration, especially if it is already over-populated and struggling with unemployment and housing problems itself?

My mind boggles at the suggestion that this should be allowed to happen because eventually our living standards will be as bad as those from poorer countries and then, hopefully, people can be expected to return home!

Incidentally, I am not convinced by the arguments which have been made earlier on this thread that because we are all descended from Africans millions of years ago, or that our grandmothers were German or whatever, we should not complain today about immigrants coming here in large numbers.

Are we talking about illegal immigration here, as per the OP, or all immigration?

Just to be clear, when I refer to 'immigration' I am referring to large numbers of relatively unskilled workers from other parts of the EU who are likely to be taking more from our country, overall, than they are contributing and who will be competing with the poor of this country for jobs and housing.

Controlled immigration of any nationality or ethnic group would be fine with me if people can show that they have the ability to support themselves and skills to offer which are not already available here.

Funny how we can have totally different views about sharing the land we live in, yet when it comes to the wealthy and the old boys club, where they all serve their own interests, there are massive objections to such attitudes. This is a relatively wealthy country and we can afford to be generous to those less fortunate than ourselves. It's something the wealthy and powerful could learn - on that there is much more agreement.

when surely there are limits though.

I like the suggestion made earlier today that those who think we should share our wealth with others who are less fortunate could start the ball rolling by opening up their own homes.

Ana yes I was talking about all immigration which I probably should not have done on this thread.