Illegal immigration - what to do?

@Holly: 1. So why are there food banks that the EU have offered to help finance? 2. Why are people having their homes repossessed because they can't pay the mortgage? Why do so many elderly people die from cold-related illness each winter?

Loads of reasons, e.g.:

1 & 2: Bad financial management by local authorities and individuals.
3. Same as above plus add to that breakdown of families and care systems.

HollyDaze the phrase used was relatively wealthy.

Grannyknot - the point I was making is that the country may be classified as wealthy (surprising though given the austerity measures in place to pay of the country's debt) but it doesn't follow that it's citizens are.

Did anyone see the interview on channel 4 on the day that Nigel Ferage said that he would rather live next door to a German rather than a a Gypsy ( I use the word Gypsy because that is the word they prefer)
On this interview John Snow had a Romanian academic. Poor John Snow nearly fell out of his chair when she said: No, I wouldn't live next door to a Gypsy.
I lived in an Eastern European country for 5 years and at one time the owners of the property let it ( unknowingly) to Gypsies. The poor man had to fly back from Berlin to rescue his house that was slowly being taken apart.
The other side of the coin. I had a woman Gypsy gardener. She was the most honest hard working woman I have ever known.

Okay, Holly, I see that now, we agree.

One of the reasons the Rom gipsies want to come to the UK, is that they are really badly treated in all the Eastern countries. We once visited one of our ex lodgers, a Bulgarian academic, in Sofia- she was a lovely person and we had had such pleasure in hosting her for 6 months- but she absolutely hated Roms. Same with another academic we hosted from Prague when we visited her there.

Grannyknot

Okay, Holly, I see that now, we agree.

Phew, thank goodness for that - I thought I'd managed to niggle someone else as well

Holly it takes a lot to upset me on these forums. To me, it's like having a conversation with someone, just not as easy (because you don't have the physical interaction).

Can I just say I have nothing particuar against SA migrants it is just that white migrants from SA/Aus/NZ are rarely seen as an issue 'draining our health services' 'taking places in our schools' etc. I was raising a question about if we had a finite number of 'places' for migrants should priority be given to those who might improve their lot the most or to those who are most like the 'host community'?
I am the child of a migrant btw.

People aren't poor because of immigrants. They're poor because 55% of the nation's wealth is owned by 1% of its population. An Oxfam report stated that five billionaire families control the same wealth as 20% (12 million) of the population.

Well said, Eloethan.

Penstemmon, I agree with you 're the complexities of it all. Whether a country is seen as being wealthy is relative too.

To get to South Africa Mozambican people, including women, will cross the border into the Kruger Park and risk no less than being eaten by lions. Heartbreaking.

Once illegal immigrants do establish themselves, they are referred to as "self-settled" immigrants.

This is an interesting paper:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3475964/

Eloethan

People aren't poor because of immigrants. They're poor because 55% of the nation's wealth is owned by 1% of its population. An Oxfam report stated that five billionaire families control the same wealth as 20% (12 million) of the population.

Surely most people are aware of that by now? Aren't there many factors that keep people poor? Things like some incomes not matching the cost of living? A shortage of jobs driving down pay even further and, thereby, making it an employers market?

The issue of Roma gypsies is a tough one. As others have said, they are ostracised and treated as worth less than other eastern european communities. Their access to education and employment is severely restricted. No wonder that what seem like large members of this community are making their way here.
Manchester University has a study underway looking at the issues around the growing Roma population in the UK. I went along to a debate recently, which included David Blunket, a local head teacher whose school has a high incident of Roma children, a young Roma woman who came here age 16, got into education and is now employed by MancUni and a selection of other panel members. The audience included a group of young Roma men, who spoke about the contrast between their experiences in Romania (bad) and in the UK (good in terms of access to education, and therefore the opportunity to have gainful employment)

Before anyone accuses me of having rose tinted specs, or being a soft lefty, I'm not minimising the concerns expressed by many posters about the impact of current levels of immigration/asylum seeking on our public services. I absolutely agree with Eloethan about who holds the wealth in this country. I don't agree with Holly that most people know this now.

Holly I campaign quite often for the People's Assembly and I'm always surprised at how little people seem to know about our political and economic system - including how the nation's resources are controlled by a small number of people.

Low wages and inflated prices are naturally related to the economic power of the 1%, who have control over vast swathes of land and businesses. As we have seen demonstrated on many occasions, investors in companies (of which the super rich hold large tranches of shares) are only interested in profits. In order to increase profits it is necessary to reduce costs (through cutting jobs and wages) and sell at the highest price possible.

It's already accepted that, despite Britain being the 7th richest country in the world, the majority of the population has seen a decline in income and an increase in debt, and a significant number are now experiencing real poverty. With even services like child protection being seen as a business opportunity (which will, as usual, lead to cuts in pay and conditions and a fragmented service), the control of the few over the many will continue.

It does not matter whether most people know it now. It does not stop it being true, and should not be dismissed.

Eloethan

I am happy to take your word for it that many people are unaware, it's just that I've never met anyone who didn't.

It's quite depressing really isn't it. I heard a woman on tv saying that the whole rise of multinationals was about restricting choice and the fact is that 'they' (those infamous 'they') make a lot of money out of the fact that you have no real choice.

I wish there was an answer to it all

https://fullfact.org/immigration/how_man_illegal_immigrants_uk-32868

Link title self-explanatory.

What does it matter exactly how many there are?

The UK population is 63m, so illegal or irregular residents amounting to about half-a-million or a million (nobody seem to know!) represents less than 1% at worst. That doesn't sound to bad so what are UKIP making all the fuss about? On the other hand if all the UKIP/right-wing agitation eventually leads to the UK leaving the EU then 2.5m UK expats might well be coming 'ome. That would certainly stretch the old national elastic in terms of healthcare and accommodation. Or perhaps UKIP would ban them as well!

Wouldn't an equivalent number 'go home' from the UK if that happened?

Who knows, Ana.

Michael Howard's father was a Romanian migrant
The Welsh UKIP MEP Nathan Gill has joined the ranks of UKIP stars that have been employing E European migrants in his family business (care homes)
It matters ana if political parties use incorrect figures to inflame a panic - if the overestimated numbers lead to headlines like "illegal immigrants head for a million" - not that such a thing would ever happen.
It still amazes me that we do not have a computer system that records arrivals through ports (not that that would pick up trafficked illegals)
Countries like Hong Kong, Australia and NZ record everyone arriving and departing.
Vast majority of illegals are going to be on the fringes of the economy, no NI number, earning cash in hand below minimum wage. Extremely hard to count!

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But apart from that (the land mines and watchtowers and shooting to kill and state of emergency)

Don't panic