Illegal immigration - what to do?

The majority of Africans, such as Somalis and Sudanese, who feel that they can longer live in their native countries – and who can blame them – have settled in other African countries. They are not heading to the rich pastures of Europe.

Thank you petallus, I wish I had a solution, but if I did I would probably be Secretary -General of the United Nations !

Nannygoat12345 They largely come to the UK because we speak English. Almost every other country in the world speaks English as their second language, (often far better than most Brits can speak any second language that they ever learnt), therefore it's easiest to get by here. That is quite understandable.
English is now used in almost all international dealings. At one time in Europe it used to French. Hence "lingua franca"

Soutra good post esp last para.

Did anyone else see the news footage of the boat people the other week. It was full of young males. Those at the front getting on the rescue ship were fist hitting in the head and face of those behind them. The hate and anger on the faces of the beaters was shocking to see.

I once posted some time ago that in the mid-70s I worked in a private hotel. All restaurant waiters were Italian. One of them told me he had been here since 1950-ish and boasted that he never paid any tax. (I was paying 33% under the Labour gov.) He boasted about his very nice detached house in an affluent part of the area. His wife didn't have to work either. He came to this country because of the oppression in his. What the Italian maitre'd used to do and say is another story. They both said this was a land of opportunity. My DS recently went to Sicily where DIL had relatives by marriage. They thought it funny that the locals were running their electricity from the grid system into their houses so they didn't have to pay anything. (Wonder if there are any Italian leckies here!). Same in Spain, France and Greece. Of course we are a land of opportunity - an untapped source of electricity from the national grid perhaps. Actually, I saw this happening on a building site in Cyprus last year, too. And these are Europeans with their culture and similar religions. We are a moderate, tolerant country - but ... only so far and no further. Also heard on Sky News the other day that even though Germany and France are much, much larger countries, we have to take the same number of immigrants as they do - all being equal partners, etc.

You're right, granjura. i think that was said earlier or on a similar thread.

I wonder if those from Spanish speaking countries go to Spain?
Haven't noticed anything about Spanish immigrants or refugees, but I suppose there must be some.

durhamjen, language is also part of the issue. Most youngsters speak English these days- and few Italian for instance, and French is limited to old French colonies.

soutra
I was not lecturing you and since when do you have the monopoly of knowing all about 'camps'
I was quoting the BBC history website and a dictionary definition.
I too know about history.
I do like facts to be accurate which is why I check if at all possible.
I did not like the bracketing of camps for 'illegal immigrants' with the 'death camps' which we all know about in Nazi Germany during WW2 which were set up with the express intention of exterminating millions of Jews and other ethnic groups.
clear enough?

There are legal and illegal immigrants, ethel. Of course it makes a difference.

what is the difference between calling them 'illegals' or 'immigrants', the name doesn't make a difference. Im totally confused about this subject anyway so I read with interest all the comments.

If you read the thread on the Italian island, you will see that some are given a six month travel pass to anywhere in Europe.
This thread is about illegal immigrants, not asylum seekers or refugees.
Illegal immigrants usually want to be in England because they have family here, or have been told it's a better place to live.
Asylum seekers and refugees are supposed to declare themselves at their first port of call, but often do not, particularly if they want to get away from traffickers.

Why is it always France and the UK that 'need' to deal with them.... as Igranma says, they have passed through other EU countries, they get through them somehow, they are not 'teleported' to Calais, they don't suddenly appear from thin air !

Please don't lecture me on concentration camps, grannyonce, my point was merely to recommend scrupulous accuracy regarding the Konzentratonslager of Nazi Germany. It is too easy to use emotive language, categorising all camps as extermination camps, in a "Nazis bad, British good" oversimplification.
My knowledge of what went on in the Boer Wars comes from a study of history, and my reference was indeed from a history of South Africa. We have all heard of the infamous death camps you refer to, but there were hundreds of all sizes all over Germany and its conquered territories, some of which I have visited. The Nazis may have taken the system to new iniquitous depths, but did not invent it nor were they unique in the practice -look at the Gulag camps of Russia from the 1920s to the 60's. Or maybe also Guantanamo Bay.
My point? That man's inhumanity to man can be found among all races and religions. It is only when we start treating people with humanity that we can hope to accomplish anything. Calling them "illegals" is not going to be the place to start.

Italy is having a terrible time trying to cope and daily fishing people out of the water and then all the issues about the people when they are in times of austerity themselves. Time and time again I read in Italian forums how individuals remind each other of the terrible times Italians have had themselves as immigrants in poverty in other countries, and as a result there is a lot of charitable stuff going on. Maybe on of the issues for us on this crowded little island is that we are not a nation in exodus fleeing from poverty or oppression

It is desperately sad that so many people are fleeing from terrible conditions. Gaddafi was terrible but the situation was contained. He once said he could turn Europe Black. This is what is happening. These poor people need help. Their countries are in a terrible mess and there is hardship everywhere. The people traffickers are wicked

These illegals have no right to asylum in Britain,as they have all passed through other EU countries.
Perhaps Australia has the best solution?

Anya As I see it, we can't look after our own youth and haven't been able to for some years. There are no skills programmes for apprentices for one thing. We can't even look after ourselves from cradle to grave anymore. Each time I go to Tesco, I put something in the Food Bank box. Why does this rich, affluent country have such poverty levels? No wonder so many indigenous are moving to other countries to live, apart from better health care. Funny really. All those fighting to get here against those choosing to leave. Not sure of the law in this country - but do we intermarry within the same family as is expected by other cultures. (Silly me. Just read back what I had typed. The monarch and her consort are blood relatives - aren't they?) I did say I was having a senior moment when I wandered off topic re the Ghurkas - different religion even.

I find that rather convoluted and difficult to follow Celt but perhpas I'm suffering from over exposure to the sun!

What can we do with these young men?

Send them back?
Hold then in detention centres?
Allow them to try to find lowly paid jobs?
Put them on benefits?

We have thousands of fit young men, fleeing their countries for reasons we all sympathise with (hoping no jihadists are lurking amongst them) so how can we channel their youth, their energy, their time to tne best effect for everyone?

If you have an idea lets hear it

PS why do you think Arabs are inbred?

Anya Just as in Vietnam after the French were defeated there, special forces from the US went in to train and arm locals. As in Afghanistan with western coalition troops. But there were still fanatics amongst them who turned on the trainers, and then went on to train their tribal brothers with arms supplied by the western alliances. Now these trainers are in Iraq. Also, we use the Ghurkas. There was a time when they were refused settlement in this country after their loyal service to the monarchy and they had a dreadful pension scheme from the establishment. I signed petitions on their behalf. I would love to have a Ghurka family living next door to me - for many reasons. Prince Harry asked where the safest place to be was when he was in the Sand Pit. The reply was, "behind a Ghurka". So he had the Regiment in front of him. I seem to have wandered off topic - so sorry, another senior moment. How can we sift out those who are genuinely interested in peace and the opportunity of work, etc? We do not know the inbred tribal Arab culture apart from the cruelty they inflict upon each other. At least we know how a Ghurka family would live in this country after years of loyal service.

grannyonce some people just have to take things to the Nth degree of absurdity!

soutra
definition of concentration camp
a place in which large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labour or to await mass execution. The term is most strongly associated with the several hundred camps established by the Nazis in Germany and occupied Europe 1933–45, among the most infamous being Dachau, Belsen, and Auschwitz.

lets at least be accurate as you say - if you read the last sentence above
no-one is suggesting 'concentration camps' in the Nazi sense is the same as 'holding areas for illegal immigrants'
I was not being 'holier than thou' as you so charmingly put it but striving for accuracy.
I did not know what we were doing in the Boer war - did you - or are you just transposing current righteous indignation about what happened in history to the here and now.

Would it be crazy to suggest these refugees/economic migrants were offered the choice of returning to their own country or to train as soldiers?

When all the young men seem intent on leaving behind their country of birth because of warring factions, religious fanatics and the like, they are surely leaving behind their mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, uncles, aunts, cousins, grandparents to suffer under the regime they are fleeing.

So who is going to fight back and turn their country around? If they were offered the chance to train and fight and decent wages and equipment and support and the offer of British Citizenship at the end of their conscription would that not at least serve several ends; gainful paid employment for these refugees, a trained fighting force to send against the likes of Isis, Al-Shebab, etc drawn from their own countrymen, the hope of their country being returned to peace and another ideology to replace the jihadists recruiting young disillusioned men?

It might also discourage the purely economic migrant.

just an idea to throw into the pot

durhamjenI clearly remember sitting in front of the telly with my stomach muscles clenched, hoping against hope that the US and allies would not invade Iraq.

But they did, of course, and as every thinking person knew, chaos ensued. I read later that Bush had no idea about sunni/shia hatreds.

Like many others, I made my feeling known in letters to the editor etc, but as you said, the pollies knew best, or so they always thought.

Lots of us were very vocal against the war in Iraq, CelticRose.
Unfortunately, as now, politicians tend not to take any notice of us once they are in power.