Political incorrectness I do miss it!

This article, and more importantly, the comments/debate that follows is illuminating. I know it's not about the UK and any other points about it being prompted by a different issue, but some intelligent and thoughtful comments are made. Well worth a read:

www.racefiles.com/2013/06/28/5-things-not-to-do-when-accused-of-racism-a-note-to-paula-deen-and-the-rest-of-white-america/

No, GrannyTwice, I don't think I'm missing the point. I think 'most intelligent people' can work out for themselves if another person is being racist or not, is being hurtful or not. Take the scenario of the Williams sisters - if the men hadn't blacked up, they could have been any two female tennis players (by blacking up it was immediately apparent who the two tennis players could be). The question, for me, would be: did they choose the Williams sisters as they are at the pinnacle of their career or did they choose the Williams sisters because they could black up? That would be, imo, the deciding factor.

The charges that we decide to pursue should always reflect the seriousness and extent of the offending supported by the evidence; any element of pre-meditation or persistence in the defendants behaviour; the provable intent of the defendant; and the severity of any injury suffered by the victim.

www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/racist_and_religious_crime/

Not intending to be racist, sexist etc is not an excuse- the perception of the person at the receiving end is what matters - otherwise that reasoning would always be a ' get out of jail card' wouldn't it? It's just not logical to go with the speaker / doer's intention to judge a comment/ act is it? Can you see that? If we accepted that, then anything would go and we'd be back to I didn't mean it, it was a joke etc etc. I'm not treading insults honestly - I'm trying probably very badly to explain why intention can't be sufficient justification discriminatory comments/ behaviour - we have to be more sophisticated than that.

Holly - you are missing the point . The example you give detracts from that point - in everyday life now, most intelligent thinking people accept and understand that blacking up is perceived as racist - in legislation intention is not the issue - did you not know that?

Can it be racist to imagine racist undertones when they don't exist ie the person offended is finding racism when it doesn't exist?

IMO - yes. I saw a play once about the Black Country and the men in that were blacked up but if people didn't know the history of the place, they could have jumped to the wrong conclusions if they hadn't first asked why. Not all blacking up is about being disrespectful to black people.

But the Morris Dancers black up because in the past they put dirt on their faces so their employers wouldn't know who they were. Someone watching it today might asume that they're 'blacking up' for a different reason and might ask for it to be banned, even though it's a traditiin that goes back a long time. Can it be racist to imagine racist undertones when they don't exist ie the person offended is finding racism when it doesn't exist?

www.nwemail.co.uk/news/furness-morris-men-perform-traditional-easter-mummers-pasche-egging-play-1.692561

When we lived near Barrow-in-Furness we took the DCs to see the traditional Easter Pasche-Egging play.
The plays re-create tales from the time of the Crusades and that is why some of the actors are blacked up.

It would be good if this thread stayed on track instead of getting railroaded with insults.

Good luck with that one whenim64

NanKate Bravo to you for returning to debate the issues thoughtfully and without putting other people down because they have different views. I do see where you're coming from, even though I see it differently. It would be good if this thread stayed on track instead of getting railroaded with insults. I'm sure we agree on that

Yes Tegan these days I would - I love Mortis Dancing and have never seen anyone blacked up - although I know it happens. It's not intrinsic to the enjoyment

When - i really believe that blacking up is racist behaviour masquerading as 'ooh don't you have a sense of humour' 'it was only a bit of fun' and of course the classic, ' some of my best friends are black'

What about Morris dancers that black up because it's traditional? I know the reasoning behind it is different [ie that of disguise]but do people feel that is wrong and should be banned?

Tricia - and your point is? We shouldn't be careful about hurting people because if we are careful and think it matters, it will encourage them to sue if we do hurt them? Well I bloody well wish there was more suing quite frankly- is the only language some people understand!! Talk about non sequiturs!

Perhaps two men with naturally black skin, taking the piss out of the Williams sisters, might have got away with it. Except that they have never set themselves up to be anything other than dedicated athletes, so what's there to mock?

NanKate - my point was that you should understand why blacking up is NOT acceptable - did you read my link. All I can go on is that you found it funny whereas I would never have done because it is so plain WRONG. A blacked up person could tell a joke that I might normally find amusing but the fact s/ he was blacked up would mean that I wouldn't find it funny. And people in the public eye have an absolute right like all of us not to be the butt of racist, sxst, homophobic jokes etc - so yes, if people don't show an understanding of why blacking up is wrong and unacceptable than at the very least it demonstrates casual everyday racism

I was dismayed GrannyTwice at your words.

What we all really really want is a forum for racist bigots who laugh like drains at blacked up people

I feel you have missed the point I laughed at the two men dressed up as the Williams sisters not because they had blacked up, but because they were large men squashed into tiny tennis outfits. They looked like pantomime dames.

The sisters look great in their outfits and are excellent tennis players. Many well known people are parodied (if that is the right word) on TV, if you are in the spotlight you have to expect it.

If Lenny Henry had dressed up in an amusing fashion and had painted his face white I would have laughed as much.

I am sure none of my students of all nationalities would have said I was racist in any way. I treated everyone the same, not because I had to but because I wanted to, after all we are all human beings.

It's all to do with humour, not racism. I appreciate not everyone laughs at the same things as me.

I loved Dick Emery and Les Dawson dressed up as a women and, but that does not mean I am anti crossdressers and trans-sexuals.

Please don't label people bigots when they are not.

I hope your husband and children still feel that there are many more people who agree about being respectful and fair, than those who have treated them so badly or don't understand what racism and bigotry does, Eloethan. I know we can't always shift attitudes, but thankfully there are laws about race hate and incitement. Casual racism on forums like Gransnet is upsetting to read, and challenging it, to be faced with name calling from a few people, leaves me bewildered.

My mother used to say that 'sticks and stones' and all that, but sometimes it gets through.

Now, am I pompous? hope not
middle-class - who said 'we are all middle-class now? Oh, it was good old John Prescott!

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Eloethan, it's so good to have opinions based on actual (painful) experience rather than unfounded prejudice against so-called 'political correctness'. Thank you for that.

elegran and eloethan agree with you both.

Message deleted by Gransnet for breaking our forum guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

The trouble with political correctness is that it might start by trying to avoid hurting people's feelings, but soon money gets involved - victims suing for compensation.

There are enough of those elsewhere on line! I suppose Gransnet can't help but get its share of them, as well as the pompous middle-class ones.

Thank God for variety. There is plenty of that on here. Most of the time all opinions co-exist without bloodshed. It is only occasionally that someone reads the worst interpretation of a post and takes exception to it, then someone else reacts by taking exception to them and it all escalates. It must be the pre-storm weather getting on the nerves, should improve now that the thunder and lightning has broken.

What we all really really want is a forum for racist bigots who laugh like drains at blacked up people