The Scottish referendum debate...

Love that Granny23 now can you hum the tune too?

MacBeth never fathered any children, he only had a step son. I can well believe though that The Bruce was more prolific Annaries

Having thought about it, Aka, I think it was Robert the Bruce, not Macbeth. Anyway it was the Thane of Glamis, which both of them were.

Aka's Post about excavating a dyke reminded me of this old (1965) song by John McLean, sung by Alastair McDonald to the same tune as 'They were only playing leapfrog'. NB it is meant to be a joke. It is not a party political broadcast

“The Scottish Naval Patrol” by Jim McLean (1965)

“CHORUS:

We’ll dig a trench along the border
We’ll dig a trench along the border
We’ll dig a channel frae the Solway tae the Tweed
And sail away frae England wi’ the SNP.

We’ll keek in every corner ‘roon the North Sea tae the Clyde.
For naebody will stowaway when we sail wi’ the tide.
We’ll mak’ sure the Duke o’ Edinburgh’s on the other side,
When Scotland sails away.

CHORUS

We’ll steer for warmer watters far away frae Wilson’s freeze;
And them wi’ queasy bellies may remain where e’er they please;
And strut aboot in London toun a-showin’ aff their knees;
When Scotland sails away.

CHORUS

We’ll maroon the tartan Tories on an island in the mist
Wi’ copies o’ Sir Walter Scott and then, if they insist,
We’ll gie them Andy Stewart for their Desert Island Disc
When Scotland sails away.

CHORUS

There’s sailors doon in Cumbernauld and up in Stornoway,
There comin in frae Aberdeen, Dundee and Inver’ay,
In Glasgow you can hear them roaring ‘Anchors a-weigh!’
When Scotland sails away.“

Aka, Looking forward to Andrew Neil's programme on BBC2 Tuesday evening about the effect of possible Scottish independence on the UK. In the meantime I think I'll be a Roundhead as I don't have enough curls to be a Cavalier.

papaoscar but that's always been the way for centuries. Do you think the cavaliers and the Roundheads were in full possession of all the facts before the took up arms on whatever side? I suspect that, like today, they knew a few facts, had a gut reaction for or against one side, or a personal grievance, or were in it for money or glory.

Looks like nobody is willing or able to,answer my question about the impact on the rest of the UK.

Mishap, you make some vital points about voting possibilities and difficulties in the UK in the event of a referendum on the EU. It really doesn't bear thinking about!

Papaoscar that explains a lot!

Annaries I signed the letter, not because I want to tell the Scots how to vote but to say that I don't want them to leave the Union. They're family, and always will be ever since good Queen Bess left England to a Scottish King.

I do not see why our status should change. Denmark has a smaller population than London and is still part of the EU, NATO and the UN.

Aka, I always take advice on Scottish matters from that fine old Glaswegian sage Rab C. Nesbit, hence the apparent befuddlement and quaintness.

HM is descended from a Stuart - was it Elizabeth of Bohemia? DH would know but he is snoozing.

Our status in the EU, in NATO, the UN etc would surely change if we become a smaller country as a result of Scottish independence?

I didn't think McBeth had a living child.

Good heavens. In the very unlikely event of a YES vote, it's not as if Scotland is going to excavate a dyke between itself and England and float off into the Pentland Firth or build a new wall to keep the English out.

I really don't see that independence will impinge on England the UK as much as people think, especially in a negative way.

I'd be interested to hear what negative impact independence would really have on England the rest of the UK.

"too" - in red pen!

I think the Queen can trace her line back to Macbeth.

I share granny23's concerns about our democracy and its imperfections; as I am sure that many of us do. But it is massively better than no democracy at all.

The dreams of a utopian Scotland cannot and will not materialise - I know you did not expect cake on day one, but I suspect the cake is likely not to rise on the oven.

Democracies tend to crumble a bit round the edges when the realities of government sink in, and the need to try and meet so many competing needs and vested interests loom. Remember what a great guy Tony Blair seemed once upon a dream?

I do not believe that the implications have been fully thought through and fear that, canny thought the Scots may be, many will not have the time or the inclination to fully research and evaluate the full details, any more than people in the rest of the UK. This is why I think that referenda are wrong and simply present an illusion of democracy.

The same problems will apply if we have a referendum on the EU - most people are likely to vote in ignorance of the full facts - I include myself among those people - how many of us have the time to go into the complex ramifications? - we are to busy earning a living and few of us are economists. We then finish up voting for the wrong reasons: based on "tribal" divisions or on negatives - e.g. vote for EU because you don't like immigration levels; or vote for Scottish independence because you don't like the Westminster government.

The only way that referenda work is if all the population is fully aware of all the implications of their vote - and where are they to obtain objective facts on which to make a positive choice?

I hope that Scotland stays with the UK, which is already a tiny island. More fragmentation is not the way to go.

There are still descendants of the Stuarts alive today I believe. A possible thought if Scotland would like to continue with a monarchy?

Oops, I stand corrected Annaries

If Scotland leaves then it would in fact impinge on the rest of the UK in many ways, so I think we are entitled to an opinion if not a vote.
I would not presume to tell anyone how they should vote, that is their business and theirs alone.

Why should Scotland contribute to a national debt under those circumstances?

I can see Salmond's point completely, whch is more than I can say for PapaOscar's quaint ramblings which I find very patronising and befuddled (speaking as a 'canny' Scot). I'm sure he is a very nice old papa but his ideas are more Brigadoon than Brainy.

Roseq, I think you mean the Antonine Wall. Hadrian's Wall is from Newcastle to Carlisle, approximately, although I might move to Northumberland if they can join with the Scots.
Scotland has a better health service, a better education system, and I'm all for going nuclear free.
I will not be signing, but I do not think it is any English person's business to tell them to say no. In fact the Scots I know would tell me to b. off if I told them how to vote. I saw the ad/letter from actors. What have Judy Dench, etc., got to do with it?
The queen is the head of Scotland by accident of birth and war. I hope if Scotland votes yes she retires to Scotland, and lets Charles rule down here.

I mean Customs of course

Who is going to bear the costs of the border between Scotland and England? We will need border patrols, cusoms, immigration officers etc, even a new Hadrian's wall (Salmond's barricade?). Perhaps extra police all along the border as desperate English try to cross and seek asylum in Utopian Scotland. Perhaps they would be meeting disillusioned Scots escaping south.

I am heartened to see that Mr. Salmond's attempts to dress the operation of an independent Scotland in terms of a Utopian and sunny existence amongst heather-blessed hills in a land of highland make-believe last seen on the old White Heather Club with Moira, Kenneth and Andy, are unravelling under close scrutiny. The Scots are a canny race and will not easily be deceived. I too have little time for the present UK coalition but I think that it would be wrong to blame them all the world's ills. Much good has come out of the UK.