The Scottish referendum debate...

Touch paper lit

Which ever way it goes in September I hope that that will be the end of it. Bit sick and tired of the Yes voters whining on about Westminster etc. We in the South have the same problems when we don't get the government we would like - it is called democracy.

I don't think it's a threat. It's a statement. Scotland can take it or leave it. The yessers want it both ways. Cake and eat it syndrome.

No POGS I cannot accept that point. End of.

The last sentence was a bit strong but I get sick and tired of the yes campaign accusing England of bullying tactics when it uses threats over the debt issue.

In other words stop taking a moral high ground you don't do your campaign any favours if you do exactly what you accuse the no campaign of doing.

Aka

Can you not accept the point it is not England against Scotland, that's why there is so much ruddy nastiness spoken at times.[ confused]. There are devolved governments in the UK who say the same. It's good economics and that's the whole point, not just bullying by England as Salmond would have you believe.

As for the Euro countries the fact you raise about the difference in their economies is precisely why they have a problem. Scotland and the other nations in the UK are fortunate not to have such a problem. The countries in the Euro must accept a common agreement over their fiscal policies, as the 4 countries in the UK do. Again it is sound economics.

As for the 'threat' by the yes campaign that you will not take your share of the national debt then not only will the world finance sectors keep their distance from lending Scotland money you will be, well to put it bluntly a cretinous country that has the morals of Argentina.

The threat is that Scotland will not be allowed to use the pound unless it accepts regulation and financial control from London. The Bank of England may want to control government borrowing in Scotland, as well as interest rates, and could even demand a say in Scottish taxation.

The comparison is with the European single currency zone, where delinquent members such as Greece have been forced to accept draconian public spending cuts, the privatisation of public assets and all manner of impositions by the European Central Bankers, who take their lead from Germany.

But Scotland is not like Greece. Its economy is not decades behind England, but level-pegging, so there is no particular reason to expect a sovereign debt crisis there.

However, if England really does want to play rough, and tries to refuse the pound, then perhaps Scotland should answer in kind. It could say: well, if you don't want a monetary union, you won't be wanting Scotland's share of the national debt. After all, Ireland didn't pay when it left the UK. That £120bn could pay for a lot of Scottish bank notes.

Wonder whose face we could put on them?

Aka

I am Sure somebody will correct me but my understanding is:-

Scotland can have a currency called the pound, the yen, the groat, the peseta. What is being said, is the Bank of England will not be the Lender of Last Resort. Can I point out this is being said not only by George Osborne but Labour, Lib Dems, England, Wales and Northern Ireland devolved governments.

In other words if things go t--t's up, as happened with RBS, the Bank of England and the remaining countries who will form the UK will not offer financial backing.

If Scotland kept the pound sterling by agreement with the countries that form the UK Scotland will have to abide by the same rules and regulations as the UK countries. That to me points to Scotland NOT being an independent nation as Salmond keeps stating.

Have I got the wrong end of the stick?

Thank you Papascar for your reply. I accept that the issue of currency still has to be resolved, but I don't see why the pound should not continue time the currency in Scotland. It is not for the likes of George Osboune to just declare 'you can't play with my teddy bear'. Never the less I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

My main point was those who think companies will have to split resources/sites whatever. My son works for a multinational company. In the unlikely event of a YES vote, they will continue to run their offices in Scotland (and England, and Wales, Germany, France, Dubai, Hong Kong, etc) as usual.

newist I was concerned by your allegation so emailed family members who live in Glasgow, Motherwell and Gourock. I've just had the last reply a few minutes ago. Not one of them has seen any evidence of the vandalism your neighbour mentioned and the first two towns at least are large urban conurbations. It was news to them. Can I also add that on Saturday night in the quiet little town I live in, in the Midlands, six cars were severely damaged by yobs high on drugs and alcohol. My point being that vandalism takes place everywhere. The reason is more usually alcohol related than political, but it would suit the NO brigade to use this to their own ends. And it would seem that that tactic is succeeding by 'word of mouth' in not actual fact.

Haha! This is really quite funny. Ian Smart again.

The world is a big and harsh place if you're tiny player in the great game
That was I was trying to say about our membership of the UN, NATO etc if Scotland leaves the Union. Not only will they be a small country but the rest of the UK would have less influence as a result.
I think at least one poster seemed to think it would make no difference at all, but I believe it will.

The UK may seem small at the moment in comparison to some of the larger countries, but we still have some influence as the sixth largest economy in the world. If Scotland leaves, this will not be the case any longer; they may believe they will have a strong economy (as they well might) but it will not be of great significance in comparison to others and their influence will be negligible.

I'll pick up the gauntlet, Aka, about aspects of Scottish post-independence business movements, from the perspective that I am neither gullible nor biased. The present position is that the pound floats against other currencies and is blown about from time to time. Against the Euro, for example, the pound sank almost to parity not so long ago but currently is much stronger, which must be helping imports but causing stress with exports. This despite the modifying effect of the huge London international finance market, which (hopefully more honestly these days) makes a significant contribution towards the stability and success of the pound, such as it is.

If an independent Scotland remains within the pound all should be well and good, but if Scotland is outside the pound I suspect that Scottish businesses, particularly in the early years, would be foolish not to be concerned at their financial stability and prospects. I would therefore expect many Scottish (and indeed other UK) businesses to hedge their bets by placing assets and operations in other currencies and financial areas. The absence of a plan B would worry me if I were a Scottish businessman, unless gaurantors can be found to underwrite the new currency at least for a time. There would be great uncertainty, and emotion is not a commodity in great supply in the business community. The world is a big and harsh place if you're tiny player in the great game, as the Captain and crew of HMS Sterling know only to well.

That's dreadful Jane and newist.
It was mentioned on Radio 4, by I think, James Naughtie, that Alex Salmond is used to holding court, running rings round others in the Scottish Parliament but came unstuck against Alistair Darling last week.

A neighbor of ours has just come back home, after visiting family on mainland Scotland, they are shocked as to what is occurring in the relatives area, vandalism and intimidation is happening to anyone who publicises the fact they will vote no. My neighbor is now of the opinion that anyone who uses tactics of bullying to get their own way, do not deserve a yes vote. All here, who know about this, word of mouth is quick to get round in this area, who may of voted yes, are certainly now voting No

I'm still waiting for facts and figures Jane. Why should a firm that operates in Scotland operate any differently after a YES vote? why should they 'split' their company? For heavens sake, we live in a global economy, it's not a divorce settlement. This is the kind of misinformation thrown about by the NO group and believed by the gullible. The truth is England needs Scotland to stay in the union.

When I was up there recently I'd say there was just as many NO as YES stickers and I know many who intend to vote YES. It's stretching incredulity too far to believe you've never met even one YES voter.

I don't accept hearsay about vandalism as 'you would say that wouldn't you' ? Anyone can throw out unsubstantiated accusations.
However I do accept that the NO vote will win as I base my opinion and conclusions on facts and figures, not hearsay.

It's very sad, Jane10, to read your post about the petty vandalism against 'no' voters where you are. That is just the sort of nastiness I hoped would not happen. Hopefully it will not spread, but who knows.

As previously stated Queen Elizabeth the first was followed by James the sixth (as he`s known in Scotland) and first as the English refer to him. Basically Scotland merged with England monarchically way back. Of course there were "hiccups" with roundheads and cavaliers but the Stuarts were back in England after a while. Just wish this was all over. Up here the place is peppered with "YES" stickers but I`ve never met anyone who`s even thinking of voting yes to independence. We all keep quiet as the YES people are so aggressive. Cars are scratched and windows broken if NO stickers are in place.
Who was it that said "Its the economy stupid"? How can we bear the huge costs of splitting up all the various companies and organisations? Apparently its "only" a matter of a few billions. That's a few billions that could be spent in other more useful ways. The UK? I`m in!

I would have thought of that too. I am not sure of her ancestry that far back.

The strange thing is, Elegran, I was thinking about the Strathmore line, through the Queen Mother, whose ancestral home was Glamys Castle.

This is all getting too erudite for me so

wanders of singing "Scots wha hae wi' Wallace bled, Scots, wham Bruce has aften led, Welcome to your gory bed,— Or to victorie.— Now 's the day, and now's the hour; See the ..."

I would not dream of bringing "the marbles" into the discussion. just thought I would mention hereditary aspect to the discussion.

And Robert the Bruce is in there too.

I think it was Duncan (who was killed by MacBeth and his missis). Duncan's son, Malcolm, became king and married Margaret, a decendant of Alfred the Great. From their daughter Matilda were descended the Plantagenet kings, and from their son David the Stewarts.

The royal pedigree is on www.britroyals.com/royaltree.htm , (it does not include the link from Duncan to Malcolm, but has everyone else bar the kitchen sink)

Don't mention the marbles newist

Lord Elgin is a direct descendant of Robert the Bruce