To wish ATOS would leave me alone

I worked for many years with people with brain injury and was part of the lobby to get the disability benefits claim form changed (which it eventually was) to cover their "hidden" disabilities. So that is a step forward.

But it was still absolutely vital to get the wording right on the forms. And not to be afraid of repeating yourself over and over again - as indeed the forms do!

I would recommend that anyone applying for a disability benefit gets the advice of someone with experience in the field when completing the forms.

In all the years I worked in the field I never once had a claim refused. Attention to detail and knowledge of the system are what is needed and the average person making the claim does not have that knowledge.

They are paid at the assessment rate once the appeal is lodged.
It's the period while waiting for the mandatory reconsideration is not payed.

Exactly what I have been saying, Galen, the system is wrong. To someone not being paid either ESA or JSA, it does not matter where the hold-up is.
It's degrading having to apply anyway, but then having your benefits stopped and having to rely on foodbanks is quite sick.

This is what the government says about the work capability assessment. I note it gives itself up to 2018 to get it right. Hopefully IDS will no longer be an MP by then, let alone a minister.

www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/work-and-pensions-committee/news/esa-wca-report-substantive/

All the tribunal members I work with think it's wrong and we don't hesitate to say so. The committee in The House say the same!
Don't blame us. We're doing our best but have to work within the law

"A new process called ‘mandatory reconsideration’ cuts off people’s disability benefit while the DWP reconsiders their ESA application. This has led to cases where people are being told by one part of the Government that they can’t claim ESA, because they are fit enough to work, while another part of the Government is telling them they can’t claim Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) because they are not fit for work. This has resulted in some people having no money at all and led to many of the people we help to turn to food banks to get by.

Anyone who does succeed in applying for JSA will be given the same £71 a week they were being given under ESA. This seems a ridiculous waste of time and money. We estimate that getting people to apply for Jobseeker’s Allowance is wasting over £160 per person in pointless administration.

Please support our petition calling on the Government to put an end to this policy which is wasting taxpayers’ money while placing people in a ridiculous and unfair situation."

From the CAB website.

A lot of GPs are resigning, Janea. You read Pulse, just like I do.

Has anyone read the CAB site? Is it not worrying that the CAB has to set up an e-petition on change.org to get the fit for work system changed?
Am I the only one that thinks this is iniquitous?

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/campaigns/current_campaigns/fitforwork.htm

Read Colin's story if you think people are paid while waiting for justice.

Jenyou asked Galen
'Do you not agree that you are propping up a man who has not been able to do his job properly?'

The vast majority of doctors working in the NHS loathe Jeremy Hunt and his policies.
Should they too resign?
All professional people working in public service have this dilemma of being caught between the ideal service they would like to deliver, and adhering to the policies and constraints of the State which pays them for their services.

I'm afraid that your personal remark to Galen sounded like a cheap gibe.

Durham people turned down for ESA do get paid while waiting for their appeal.
BUT
They can't appeal until after they have received their mandatory reconsideration. This is an extra tier of adjudication that has been added and takes months to undertake. No money is received until after the appeal has been made.
This extra tier is what is wasting the most time along with the appointment for the interview. We list the appeals very promptly after they have been reveived. We have NO WAITING LIST.

Try appeals against criminal convictions as an analogy if you don't like my A&E one. Appeals are possible if there is new evidence, which has not been considered, or a technicality that means the judgment is unsafe. So there is another layer.

I stopped being a Benefit Advisor in 2008. Any of my clients who were refused a benefit, usually Attendance Allowance, I helped with their Appeal and usually accompanied them to the Appeal hearing as their advocate. In the ten years I did this only one person was refused the benefit on Appeal.

This I think was partly while ATOS were in post and partly with the Department of Health. Then most appeals arose from people with the most complex medical problems. The assessors, whether ATOS, or civil servants, whether AA or DLA seemed to me medically ignorant. I was told by someone who had worked for the DHSS, as it was then, that this work was undertaken by clerical workers on the lowest grade and that they used a scoring system, as on credit cards. As most staff didn't understand the details of those with more complex medical problems they just refused them and let the Appeal Panel sort it out.

I have several friends who do the same work as Galen, one in quite a senior position. One of them said that ATOS pay rates were so poor they only attracted doctors, who were incapable of getting work elsewhere and their assessments were a reflection of their competencies, or lack of them.

I heard the chairman of the company taking over on the radio yesterday and she was talking brightly of how they were going to recruit 100s of extra staff to do the assessments, make them more personal etc. I listened to this very cynically. I understand one of the reasons ATOS gave up the contract was because staff were leaving in droves and they were unable to replace them because those at the assessment end of government policy were meeting so much negative reaction, not so much from clients but people they met outside when they mentioned who they worked for and what they did.

I bet they haven't, elegran.

I disagreed with CCGs. When they decided there were to be lay people on them, I got the forms. I had to say that I agreed to the ethos of CCGs before I could apply. So I couldn't and neither could anyone else who disagreed with the changes in the NHS.

Your A&E analogy is not appropriate.

So you would advise the appeals judges to refuse to work? To not hear any appeals?

If all car drivers did their driving properly and never had an accident, and no-one ever fell over or cut themselves or got into fights, there would be no need for A & E departments. Are those who work in them and try to put right the damage just encouraging carelessness and road rage?

I am sure that Galen and her colleagues have made their opinions clear on the policies that they are administering, which apart from their effect on the claimants are adding a great deal of work and stress to them.

But if the system was working properly, people would not have to go to appeal. The PIP assessment is so far behind it is getting ridiculous. People have died whilst waiting for their appeals to be heard.
From what I understand, if you are waiting for your appeal to be heard, you cannot be put back on ESA support, and have nothing to live on. There are harrowing stories on the citizens advice website.
blogs.citizensadvice.org.uk/blog/topics/fit-for-work/
Galen, you have told people not to worry because the backlog is so big that it will take 60 years to clear. That just shows how ridiculous the system is.
Do you not agree that you are propping up a man who has not been able to do his job properly?
The goalposts have been changed so often that nobody knows what they are any more. The public accounts committee has criticised IDS for doing just that.

Elegran you've put it perfectly.

I agree about IDS. He seems to be 'bullet-proof' whereas other unpopular 'reformers' such as Landsley and Gove have been replaced. It's probably because he has the approval of the Daily Wail.

It is just as well that they had a right of appeal to an unkowtowing tribunal then, isn't it?

I would expect that an average of somewhere around 50% (between 40% and 60% ?) would be reinstated on appeal. If it were much higher or lower than that, it would imply a lack of impartiality on the part of those judging the appeal - either turning everyone down to conform to the status quo or finding for everyone who seemed to be "nice people", against the result of the second assessment criteria.

The reasessment still follows the same rules as the original judgment. It does not have extra powers any more than a criminal appeal uses legalities that were not available at the original trial. What they both do is consider evidence that was not presented the first time round, or not available, as well as reconsidering the original evidence.

Over 50% of those whose benefits are stopped have them reinstated on appeal. That shows the system is at fault.

This is benefit fraud. By the DWP.

www.disabledgo.com/blog/2014/09/benefit-claimants-missing-out-on-thousands-in-transfer-from-dla-to-pip/

Maybe all appeal courts cost more than they save, in you go only by the numbers whose convictions are upheld or overturned. That does not mean that decisions should never be questioned and changed (unless we are to live under a dictatorship, or a totalitarian regime where the Party line and officialdom are always right) Checks and balances make for fairness.

I agree on the ATOS/PIP changes. They seem to think that new must be better, instead of improving existing systems. It will still be the same people applying for the new jobs, just a whole new lot of procedures and rules, and time and money spent setting it all up.

Galen's job is to examine the decisions of Atos (or whichever company is to take over from them) which are subject to appeal. I simply don't know what you mean, durhamjen by your statement about appeal courts costing more than they save. In fact, the appeals heard by Galen and her colleagues have another purpose which is to consider the Atos decisions and, if necessary, to reverse them. If they manage also to detect potential frauds, that is also all to the good. Do you mean that appeals should not be heard and that unfair decision-making should be perpetuated?

No, I haven't met Galen, Elegran. We live in different parts of the country, so am hardly likely to.
However, only about 0.7% of benefits go to fraud, so discovering fraudsters is not going to save that much money to be spent on hard-working families.
The appeal courts probably cost more than they save.

dwpunspun.org.uk/

This is the man who changed the system to PIP, and ought to be being attacked.

Have you met Galen, Durhamjen? I can't see her kowtowing to anyone.

Whatever the system of awards, an "appeal court" is needed for the cases that slip through the net. Miscarriages of justice have to be sorted out, whichever direction they are in. The benefits that go to fraudsters may be proportionately small, but discovering them means that the money wasted on them is available for more genuine claimants.

The evidence put forward can be detailed and esoteric, those sifting it need to be experienced in both the medical and the legal aspects. When they are still able and willing to do it, making them retire compulsorily at a set age seems draconian. The brain does not switch off suddenly when the body gets a little battered, and regular checks ensure that senility is not setting in.

More power to Galen that she prefers to use her abilities for the public good than to sit at home "enjoying herself" - and going stir crazy with enforced incarceration. I suspect she could keep on until she is 90, not 70. At least.

Total agreement from me and I suspect most people, with durhamjen's comment that "what's wrong is that Galen should have to take hours to go through a review for one person who should not have had her benefits stopped in the first place"

I don't read Galen's posts as indicating she is "kowtowing" to the government's hotchpotch of ideas. It sounds to me as though she's standing up for all of us

Latest statistics on benefit fraud.

blog.whobenefits.org.uk/post/101918301863/benefit-fraud-stats-vast-majority-of-benefits-go-to

Didn't mean to be unkind to Galen. Would a smiley face have been better? I don't do those.

When I had a business I used to hate being a tax collector for the government, having to fill in all those forms for VAT, NI and income tax for my employees. When I retired, the best bit was no longer being a government lackey. Because I had a business I still get tax returns every year. This year when I filled it in, I found I actually owed them £1.10, and had to pay it. How silly is that?
There are threads on here where people are complaining about no longer being able to retire at 60. There's Galen complaining about being tired and having to retire at 72. Just saying that she probably deserves to retire and enjoy herself, rather than kowtow to the government's hotchpotch of ideas.
I agree with what MiceElf said about the ridiculousness of the situation.
What's wrong is that Galen should have to take hours to go through a review for one person who should not have had her benefits stopped in the first place.

I'm so relieved it went ok for you vampirequeen. It sounds as though the Atos doctor is a human being. I imagine he may well have gone home feeling knackered.

JenD, did you mean to sound so unpleasant towards Galen? 07.11.14 13.40) Galen often appears on threads like this one with helpful suggestions and offers of support. She doesn't defend unfair processes and seems to be on the side of people with health problems. The point about her age seemed particularly unkind, I well remember being totally knackered in my 30's after a day at work.