My daughter is going to 'Unschool' her DD

the local authority has no legal mandate to inspect a home educator unless they think that the child is not getting educated. there is no requirement to stick to the national curriculum. there is no requirement to do a specific number of hours as long as the child is learning and receiving a suitable education.

un schooling is just another way of describing education child will still learn just in a diffferent way. children learn absolutely loads through play and talk and visits. especially at four.

children are often taught things very early here in the uk. formal education does not start until seven in many places. children in these places are not behind their peers here. they ofetn learn things quicker as they are ready. many four year old children still can not distinguish sounds, blend or segment when learning to read and it is much better to go at the child's pace and do early reading skills until they can hear the sounds and build words for themselves. (love of language and books, rhyme, rhythm, listening, following print left to right, top to bottom etc)

unschooling is fabulous if done well. you will find it is more likely to meet her needs than the rigidity of the new curriculum which has lost a lot of its flexibility since your dd was at school. this as an ex teacher with own children who have additional needs.

as for the benefits. well.. one can teach a child more in an hour 1:1 than in a day at school. there is very little direct input to individual children as the teacher is spreading themselves out between thirty or more once in key stage two. learning does not have to be in the school day and term time. it can be at weekends. the child needs to be educated but not necessarily during school hours. child care can be used for work time and learning can happen out of work time.

Fish and chips. I would try hard not to fall out with your daughter over this. She may change her mind herself in a bit or her daughter may decide she wants to go to school in a while. Give it time. I would feel the same as you. The less you mention it the easier it will be for your daughter to change her mind without losing face. I wish you well

I know a bit about Steiner education as two of my DDs attended the local Steiner school for 4 years each: one went to the nursery, kindergarten and Class 1 before moving on to a state primary, and the other went there from age 9 to 14, because she had reading and maths problems that were causing her to lose confidence and be thoroughly unhappy in an ordinary school.

Both benefited immensely from their time there, both have degrees, and one has an MA.

I know the person who wrote the Guardian article linked above and anyone less hippy and airy-fairy would be hard to find. She went through the Steiner system and is herself highly educated.

Steiner schools did start from the philosophy of Rudolf Steiner, but that philosophy is not taught in the schools. The education arises from some of his ideas and you have to pick and choose a bit - some of his ideas are frankly barking; but others make a lot of sense and it is these latter that have stood the test of time and on which the schools base their activities.

Children do not start to learn to read till they are 7, but neither do they in many European mainstream schools with excellent academic outcomes, so I would not allow that to worry you. People get very twitchy about trying to get children to read asap and it has no basis in reason. Seven is more than early enough.

Prior to that they do some truly lovely things: sing, dance, learn the recorder, knit, bake bread, go on nature walks, craft, tell stories, act out plays, dress up, learn how to get on with people etc. My DD who went through those classes treasures those memories - she loved it.

One of the lovely things about the education is that they make no massive distinction between art and science, which is taught in an artistic way. The art in Steiner schools is truly magnificent and is well executed by all the children: not just those who are thought to be "artistic." They also place great emphasis on the learning environment, and the school buildings tend to be beautifully crafted with lots of wood and smooth curves in their design.

The downsides are that:
- some of the Steiner schools have a discipline problem - not all, only some, so that needs to be observed closely when visiting the schools.
- the parent body do tend to be a bit on the hippy side, which I guess will suit your DD. That is a bit of a generalisation, and is probably less true now than when my children were in that system.

Steiner was anti-immunisation, but the schools do not advocate that - parents make their own choices. There is some barmy stuff doing the rounds among the parents at some Steiner schools, but I do think that this is getting watered down now, especially as state-funded Steiner schools cannot pick their pupils but are subject to the usual catchment area rules.

Fishandchips - I would not worry if I were you. If your DD chooses a Steiner school for your DGD, then this lass will have a clearer structure in her life and will be in a warm and caring community. It sounds to me as if she would be better off in that environment with peers to play with and a learning plan in place within a tried and tested educational system.

Many of my DDs' contemporaries who went through the system are surgeons, nurses, plumbers, architects - you name it, they do it! They did not find themselves disadvantaged in higher education.

It sounds as though this could be a very positive opportunity for you DGD. I would suggest that you do not dismiss it out of hand.

Fishandchips your daughter seems to have chosen a lifestyle that is totally different to yours. Perhaps if you could begin to take on board her wishes and actively contribute suggestions to her she might moderate her ideas. Perhaps you could visit a Steiner school and look around, maybe taking her with you. You might also like to suggest she looks to see if there is a local Woodcraft Folk branch near her. The WF is a youth organisation that believes in cooperation and encourages children to discuss and organise things. Most of the parents are left-leaning but working people. Check them out here woodcraft.org.uk/
It might be something that would provide a social network for your DGD and let your daughter meet some people who work within the system to educate children and help them be independent.

ps I am not saying that I advocate a Steiner education or not - just that there are more facts out there and more information available, not just the panic-stricken and possibly erroneous posts of some parents.

Who knows if the 8 year old girl mentioned would have been reading and writing if she had attended a State school?
And I think the bit about the spirit of the mother residing in baby teeth is probably scaremongering.

DD's two friends who were Steiner students (in the West Country) had already got university degrees and decided to do this as post-graduates.

Lots of children attend these schools and your DGD would be attending a school, which is subject to inspections, mixing with other children and following an educational curriculum. I think the time to worry would be if your DD decided not to send her for any formal education and 'unschooled' her permanently - which I must admit she doesn't sound capable of doing.

Here is a link to a Steiner school in the West Country:

www.steineracademyfrome.co.uk/about-steiner-school/ofsted-steiner/

Two of DD's friends trained as Steiner teachers - they seemed quite normal people to me, not hippy-dippy, not racists nor occultists that I know of!

My other DD's friend sends her 6 year old DS to a Steiner school (not in this country) and feels that he has come on in leaps and bounds since he started there. She feels that the school encourages self-reliance - not too many rules and regulations, but helping and encouraging every child to reach their potential. She is an older Mum, and seems fairly sensible! She, DD and I had a long chat in the summer about the school and her child's progress there. He was not doing at all well in the state school where they live.

Here's a link to the website:
www.steinerwaldorf.org/
and an article about them:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/22/extremist-criticism-steiner-schools

I thought the belief was that reading was best begun when adult teeth start coming through? ie about 6 or 7, and in many countries children don't start school until 6 anyway.

"Steiner schools do not like children to be taught writing prior to the 'second dentition'". It's true that Steiner himself related the introduction of reading to second dentition – the time when adult teeth come through. But starting formal learning at rising-seventh works: children seem to flourish in a situation in which they can develop aural literacy and social skills before moving on to formal written literacy teaching. In Finland and other European countries, reading and writing are taught at a similar age.

No advice I'm afraid, but I do feel for you and your DGD.

I thought I would post an update.

My little granddaughter has still not been registered for school. I think that adhering to the school hours and academic timetable is deemed to be too inconvenient for my daughter's preferred lifeststyle as she says she wants the freedom to go to festivals etc. and recently was camping in the wilderness with the pagan doulas (I looked after my GD on that occasion and at great expense flew over to the UK as I didn't want my GD going to stay with one of my daughter's hippy pals).

I asked my daughter how she was going to fit in trying to set up a business whilst teaching (or unschooling) my GD but she just says that she will find a way. In reality this seems to be 30 mins of reading a story book each day. As far as I can tell, she is getting no income from her self-employment and still not a penny in maintenance from her ex (who is long term unemployed)

I called the LEA but all they do is to send a letter to the parent to confirm that they are not going to register the child at school and later on will 'invite' the parent to discuss how it is going - but co-operation is not compulsory. My daughter has already told me that she isn't going to discuss anything with anyone 'in authority' just as she did with the health visitors.

She has discovered that there are a couple of Steiner schools which don't charge tuition fees and thinks that she will try to move to the West Country and get my GD in when she is seven.

I've been reading comments about the Steiner schools on "Mumsnet" and other websites and I'm very alarmed - it is based on occultist and racist beliefs (Anthroposophy: but this is not openly promoted). For example 'The reason that Steiner Waldorf teachers are taught to delay reading is because the spirit of the mother resides in the child's baby teeth'.

Another parent wrote "At first the Steiner experience will be wonderful and you will find yourself in awe of everything and everybody! Then as the years roll, you will start to see massive cracks appearing everywhere! Do some serious research beforehand and definitely concentrate the pros and cons to delayed reading. My child cannot read, write or spell and she is 8 years old! I am crying as I type this thinking about the terrible mistake that I have made for my LO"

I honestly can't understand how or why my daughter has turned out like she has, although she was always a rebellious child and teenager. Sigh.

This is a first post for me too. I taught my DD for a year at home when she was 11. This was due to bullying which the school would not deal with. My DD blossomed and when she went back to school (her decision) she was happy, relaxed and light years ahead academically with her peers. She is now 25 with good self esteem, compassionate, hardworking and mentally healthy.
I have never regretted it, not for one moment

If she has had student debts then she herself has been part of the system at some point and had credit card debt also. She might not like it but she has to face up to her responsibility in this and I do think you should not have paid off her debts for these so easily. She will never stand on her own two feet if you keep bailing her out. Keep saying no to lending or giving her any more money. She will have to go out and support her own child or manage on what the state gives her.

Home schooling is a fantastic opportunity for both children and parent if done correctly and just trying to ignore the fact that officials will want to check up on her or that the child should have inoculations is very irresponsible.

Become a pagan if she wants, go and build a mud hut and live off the land like some people still do, but to want freedom on the one hand and a hand out off the public and mother and father with the other is just not on. Either tow the line and be answerable to authority or go and "find herself" with the help of nature in the wilderness without handouts from hardworking people.

Ignore the doula and midwife stuff, it's just a new whim.

Have you thought of contacting the education authorities yourselves or her health visitor? It is very hard to sit back and not do anything when you know that you could but is it going one step too far and is it interfering when you should be keeping your nose out? I don't know. I'm in a similar position and at a loss of what to do for the best. Maybe do nothing and let time tell. Good luck, I feel for you.

Being a doula means all hours any hour, any day, day or night- because babies come when they want to, and not on tap. Who will look after her little one when she gets a call in the middle of the night that labour has started??? Will she count on you to be there?

Does she realise that even as a Doula she should have insurance? Even the most laid back hippy mother is liable to turn nasty if something goes wrong with a birth and the compensation claim would be astronomical. I believe many private midwives have had problems because the insurance is so expensive.

I don't know how benefits are affected by self employment (although when we were self employed we didn't seem to qualify for anything!) but it would certainly involve a lot of paperwork and book keeping and it doesn't sound as if this is her thing.

Why did you have to repay her student loan? Surely her career paid enough for her to make the payments, or if it didn't she didn't have to repay it until she did earn enough?

There is a lot I could say about her refusal to vaccinate but not having the anti tetanus is particularly worrying in the circumstances.

I am all for freedom of choice and people opting out of 'the system' BUT only if they self finance and not if they expect 'tne system' they are opting out of to pay for it. Do they not appreciate the irony?

I have had quite a few weird, hippy notions in my time but if I had wanted to "not be part of the system" I wouldn't have expected to do it at someone else's expense.
Well done for refusing the gift.

However, I can understand your worries Fishandchips.

If there was no DGD to worry about I would say let her get on with it and say 'I'm here if you need support - but not financial - there is a limit!.
Did she graduate? (you say she has student loans). My DD worked for a while at a Steiner school as a teaching assistant (she has a degree and a teaching qualification but is not Steiner trained). Your DD would earn a living in an enjoyable way, the Steiner method of teaching might appeal to her and they perhaps would let her enrol DGD at a reduced fee.
Just a thought.

although my DD now thinks she might like to be some kind of doula and register as self-employed

Doulas do seem to be fairly popular in Australia. DD was wondering whether to employ one when DGS was on the way.

Jobcentres are trying to get people to sign up as self-employed these days. It gets them off their JSA figures.

Sadly there are no solutions. She is certainly mixing with those who do know their rights and stand by them.
The obvious thing seems to be stop bailing her out and make her take responsibility for her finances but I doubt I could do that either- not with an innocent child in the background.
At least you haven't given her the gift for the unrecognised course.
I think you will just have to watch how it pans out and continue to be a safety net for your DGD.

Hello, O/P here.

First of all I'd like to clarify that I'm not against home schooling. I know a couple of women whom have done this; one is from the American Mid-West who lives on a remote farmstead and did home-ed with her 7 children, she only has two at home now as the rest are married (all in their early 20s) or at college. They've been in Switzerland due to the husband's expat posting and at first the children were home schooled as they all play in a band and the local canton (county) classed them as a 'circus family'. However after two years they had to put them into an international school as the authorities would no longer allow home-ed but will be returning to the States soon.

The other home-ed family I know of are another expat family, where they moved to the States and the mother (Chinese - yes she really does fit the stereotyping of the tiger mom) wanted them to continue with a British curriculum as they knew it wasn't a permanent move to the US. The girls are extremely bright and studious and now at good universities in England.

Sadly in my daughter's case, she just seems to have little or no work ethic at the age of 31. She just wants to go to festivals, play drums, do some painting/face painting and is now heavily exploring paganism (which alarms me) and goes off into the woods at night with my GD. She isn't talking to me as I've just refused to give - not loan - her 3000 pounds for her to do a course to learn aspects of childbirth and midwifery from a woman calling herself a 'goddess' (shaman) coming over from Down Under. This course would provide no qualifications, although my DD now thinks she might like to be some kind of doula and register as self-employed. She thinks she won't then need to sign on at the Jobcentre but will still get housing benefits, child tax credits etc.

I asked her what she would do with my GD if she is assisting a woman in childbirth as of course babies are not born M-F/9am to 5pm and she just said that her friends or her ex (lives in a camper van) would look after her (they're all a bit flaky as well). However, her clientele is going to be so limited in numbers that I'm just not prepared to waste money on something which isn't going to provide full-time employment and also goes against my personal beliefs. She doesn't want to be 'part of the system' and get a proper qualification as a midwife and work for the NHS as she is only interested in complementary medicine.

My DD is absolutely hopeless with money and we've bailed her out so many times - what do you do when you get a phone call when she says she has no money at all for food/electricity/gas? I burst into tears when she told me she had been to a food bank. We've already paid off her student loans and credit card debts, paid for the deposit on her rental flat, furnished it etc. and bought most of our GD's clothes, but tbh she doesn't seem to be at all grateful

I'm very concerned about my GD - she is such a sweet little thing and I can't keep an eye on her as I'm a 'trailing spouse' on an expat posting overseas - we haven't lived in England for many years due to my spouse's job. I've mused about returning to live in the UK but it will be some years before my spouse retires and in his line of work we can't live in the area where my DD has chosen to live (a 'depressed' coastal town) as there is only seasonal work or govt/local authority jobs there.

Someone mentioned on this thread about some home schooling parents who will not let the LEA officers do home visits; my DD knows all about this and I know for a fact she would do the same. She has never allowed a health visitor to see my GD and tells them that 'their services are not required'. Her friends/acquaintances seem to know all the loopholes. Needless to say, my GD has never had any vaccinations either (DD says she doesn't want 'those toxins' being injected into her daughter) and it worries me because of the risk of tetanus with the lifestyle she's embraced.

Sorry for writing such a long post....I fear there are no solutions but I just needed to get it off my chest.

The links about monitoring were given early in the thread.

I don't know what the situation with monitoring home schooled children is now, but it was non-existent for years in the County I live and worked in.

Do not expect a local authority to be keeping a close eye on anyone in this situation.

I have just googled my LA. I think you do have to register your child as being Home educated. It appears that there is an officer appointed to oversee home educated children but the visits appear to be about once a year and do not offer advice on teaching or anything else. The parent is left to get on with it.

Fishandchips I would be worried as well given your daughter's lifestyle and situation.

Try googling your DGCs local Authority web site to see if they have any more information.

Good luck!

In such a case, then the Government is clearly failing a child, and yes, I repeat, it is a kind of neglect- as the child will be condemned to not being able to pursue A'Level and later, Uni studies, if this is what they want to do.

I haven't read all this but in my area there is no supervision whatever of home-educated children. A relative of mine never sent her child to school and intended living on benefits to be with him 24 hours a day until he grew up. She is a single parent. When he was 12 she was forced to find a part time job so left him with her mother.
This child never went out alone until he was 16, never knew another child or had a single friend. He is clever but very odd.
Home educating works well as long as the children have a normal social life but, if an over-protective parent wants to isolate a child, there's nothing to stop her.

Exactly, a very different situation altogether. Apples and oranges and all that.