ESTRANGEMENT- The silent epidemic! Let's get this out of the cupboard.

But Bibbity, Smileless' son may not 'be his own person.' That is the crux of the matter and the other side of the story that no-one appears to consider. Just stopped off at Internet cafe and must journey on. Hopefully good wifi at hotel later so may elaborate on 1st sentence.

And so we come full circle again.
It doesn't make it hurt any less for those who are cut out of their family's lives without really understanding or being given a reason why.

But smilless can you not see that 1) your son would've had far more Day to say interations with you then these people.

And 2) he is his own person with his own opinions.
What they might find acceptable he may not.

That doesn't make you the devil incarnate.
But it doesn't invalidate his emotions, perspective and wishes for his and his families lives.

Your reasoning cuts both ways RedheadedMommy. As you say, you cannot have a discussion with someone who refuses to listen.

If there's a parent whose saying their AC is lying about their supposed problems, then you don't get to decide he or she did have problems of such magnitude that they have no choice but to CO their parents; that they are telling the truth and their parents are lying.

The son of two of our oldest and dearest friends, who we've known since he was 12 'phoned us this week. They are having their 3rd child christened and have asked us to be God parents. I'm sure our experiences of the last 4 years contributed to their decision. They are horrified at what our ES has done. Trusting us with the spiritual welfare of their baby son has served to validate us, is an overwhelming statement of their belief that we are good people, that we are not the bad, toxic people we've been portrayed as.

Bibbity "But for some people cutting all contact is the resolution." "They do not wish to have contact, they don't have contact."

RedheadedMommy "But you can't have a discussion with someone who doesn't listen. It falls on deaf ears."

I think CO is an answer for some. The GP is toxic to them.

But for some people cutting all contact is the resolution.
They do not wish to have contact, they don't have contact.

But you can't have a discussion with someone who doesn't listen. It falls on deaf ears.

I'm not saying there isn't Toxic adult children out there, of course there is.
I'm not saying Estranged children/grandparents arn't entitled to counselling, of course they are.

I'm stating from my experience we choose to keep our children away from a Toxic person who happens to be a Grandparent.
If there is an adult child who is saying 'i had problems in my childhood' I don't get to decide he didn't. Neither does his parents. He does, if he chooses to speak to his parents about it and they ignore it or gloss over it, that isn't a discussion.
Counselling is a huge help. People who are fine and dandy don't end up there.

Refusing to enter into a discussion to try and find a resolution is ignoring problems.

It never occurred to me that our ES had put up with our love, support and care for 27 years. Some estranged parents and GP's have sought counselling, not because their relationship with their EC is tricky, but because their EC has f*cked it up.

I don't think I could, in all conscience, ever stopped my mum from seeing my daughter
I just know it would have absolutely broken her heart, and I couldn't think of anything she would have done to merit that. (Although we had our fair share of disagreements)

Missadventure this brought a lump to my throat U sound such a kind person,
If only my daughter had been so kind.
She knew how totally broke. hearted we were to be stopped seeing xxxxxx
However for reasons we may never know it didn't stop her,

There's being 'tricky' and there's 'downright malicious'. Being tricky is human nature, tricky is something you can deal with i completely agree.
Having to have counselling because of your childhood isn't down to a tricky relationship. Its down to a f*cked up one.

If I had put my own happiness first when my MIL was being tricky and this had resulted in my children not seeing her, I would have deprived them of a close relationship which still means an enormous amount to them both now that they are in their 30s.

Starlady "Agree that there is a different attitude now among many young people."

Agreed. A much healthier attitude, not much ignoring problems and ruminating. A lot more getting on with a pleasant life without toxic family.

You're welcome, Yogagirl and thank you for the flowers!

Agree that there is a different attitude now among many young people. Agree, also, that not too many professionals are familiar with it yet. True, that is partly because in the past people put up with more and thought they had to. But also think perhaps it is also because people were less methodical about cos before?

You know, like maybe in the past they wouldn't talk to the person they were upset with, but they would read a letter from them and answer it or tell other relatives about it? But now it's "block everything?" and "don't answer anything?" If a therapist has never seen this before, they're likely to be stymied when a patient says, "Iv been blocked all around."

eddiecat78 "I can`t give an all embracing reason for why estrangement is increasing but I will say that most of my generation were prepared to put up with more because they didn't want to rock the boat. I daresay some people here will say we should have stuck up for ourselves more and thought only of our own happiness"

I think this is the crux of what some see as a problem. People put up with less bad behaviour, they don't like to be unhappy, they will rock on out of the boat. I daresay why shouldn't mums stick up for themselves and their children? It's a good thing to live your life well.

RedheadedMommy "When you have a toxic person in your life you feel ill. The stress it does your mind and body. It's exhausting and it flares up other conditions"; absolutely.

Yes, good posts Anya and it's worth remembering that there are weak men who also allow themselves to be controlled by their partners.

I do have to add that there are 'toxic' people too. My late sister was one. She poisoned every relationship she had. Alcohol was toxin that changed her beyond belief. But other toxins are available.,

Anya - you have summed up the current situation perfectly

Thank you MissAdventure & Starlady for your nice posts

Anya I agree with your post & Eddiecat

I think those posters who say 'Id never keep my Children away from my mom/dad/MIl etc' clearly didn't experience a toxic relationship.
Everyone is human. Everyone has bad days, does things that tick people off unintentionally, upsets people but what happens then is the apology, the acknowledgement that you did wrong. What happens when that doesn't happen?
When it escalates into something ridiculous, when verbal abuse happens because you don't let it go, when other family members get involved and it gets aired on social media because you've upset the toxic person so much, heartbroken, depressed, and other OTT emotions all because you stood up for yourself.

Now take it 1 step further when toxic person starts making things up, lies about you, your mental state, your children, your spouse, starts telling stories that never happened or things that normal person has done but conveniently forgets the part she played in it. 'He was absolutely horrible to me, i can't believe he spoke to me like that' translates too 'Mom why did you say that about Red? You know she hasn't got an eating disorder. We don't need this bullshit, say sorry or im done, you cant talk about my wife like that' but never mind what SHE has said, shes managed to spin the whole thing back.
To then disguise all that, that its all done out of love.

She could do no wrong, she could say and do whatever she wanted. Had a reason and excuse for everything. When you have a toxic person in your life you feel ill. The stress it does your body and mind. Its exhausting and it flares up other conditions. Stress does that.

Hurting her and punishing her never entered my mind. Protecting my children 100%. I dont want 2 broken adults like DH.

I think there is a sea-change in this generation of parents. As you say eddiecat we were prepared to 'put up with more', because there was generally a more give and take attitude back then. I'm afraid there are some young women these days who are much harder, less forgiving, more controlling.

While it's good that women feel they have more control in their lives, what I'm seeing are some who don't realise this comes with responsibility not to be themselves controlling.

Then sadly there is the opposite, weak young women, who still allow themselves to be controlled by partners.

The word 'control' has featured a lot in this post and my feeling is that much of this estrangement is about just that.

Nobody is denying that there are some horrendous mothers and mothers-in-law - my own MIL could be very hurtful but I respected my husband enough to accept that she came as part of the package & actually, 40 years on,she and I now get on well. What upsets us, is some people`s total refusal to accept that estrangement can happen when we have done nothing wrong. I would be just as upset if I heard of a an adult child being abandoned by its parents when it had done nothing wrong. I can`t give an all embracing reason for why estrangement is increasing but I will say that most of my generation were prepared to put up with more because they didn`t want to rock the boat. I daresay some people here will say we should have stuck up for ourselves more and thought only of our own happiness - all I know is that our way of doing things did keep families together (and often as time passed the difficult relationship improved anyway)

Starlady She included this. Again parents with no parental responsibility, who've done nothing wrong.

There seems to be a silent epidemic of adult children who are 'divorcing' their parents and refusing contact with them. Despite having been 'good enough' parents who provided love and support, these parents are suddenly being told: 'I am done with you'. The parents’ trauma is compounded by a lack of knowledge in the professional community and the lack of social support due to the invisibility of the estrangement.

This site is an attempt to help parents in need of information and to provide clinicians clues about their suffering. The word ‘clues’ is not used lightly as many parents have sought help from clinicians who had never heard of estrangement of adult children and who kept assuming the parents were at fault.

Estranged adult children are individuals who all of a sudden do not respond to email messages, do not return phone calls and stop coming over. When the parents attempt to visit and have a face-to-face talk, the door is slammed in their face or the police called.

In the great majority of cases, there was no sexual abuse involved, there was no estrangement from either parent during the childhood years, nor was there any safety concern. The great tragedy is that most parents thought they had a good relationship with their adult child and are completely taken by surprise by the estrangement. The child also cuts himself or herself off from the other siblings in various degrees.

Clinicians may be familiar with teenagers or children who have refused to see a divorced parent and continue to do so in their adult life. Often, the blamed parent is the one who initiated the divorce or is the one who moved away to start a new life. On the other hand, adult children who estrange themselves may not make divorce the issue.

When a child dies, there is an announcement in the papers, at school, at church or at work. Friends and family bring food, write condolence notes, observe rituals. When a child is estranged, nobody knows about it unless the parent chooses to share that information. Because in the beginning the parent is so stressed with lack of sleep and grief, it is easier not to tell anyone that a child is rejecting one’s own parent. Some parents keep the estrangement private; others try to share the situation with their friends or colleagues, too often met with “Why don’t you try...?” meaning “What did YOU do?”

In fact, many parents will say that their child was brought up to be considerate of others, respectful of parents and generous. They will add that there were no obvious signs, while the child was growing up, of the estrangement to come: he or she was not different from the other siblings in the family regarding love or consideration of others.

Starlady "Is this the same bil" I'm sorry. I omitted "wife". OH brother's "wife".

IDK if she wrote, cheeky posts? I asked for dwil links to inlaw complaints and she sent links. I posted some of the links, I have more entitled mum links from subreddits and sheknows.

Many links point to CO worthy offenses. I didn't CO my mom either, but I have read many dwil post that would indicate CO as a very good solution for bad issues.

"I don't know if OH's brother gave tongue in cheeky posts?"

Wait... Is this the same bil who, along with sil, insists on seeing the gc no matter what? And yet he wrote a post about how to deal with the milfh? I don't get it...

Yeah, this post is not about the group who "have fun and support". This post is more general. Insight!... others have issues too.

Ok, I get this ^^.