ESTRANGEMENT- The silent epidemic! Let's get this out of the cupboard.

Smiles: " when an AC denies their parents a relationship with their GC when this is not the case, that is when those children are used as weapons."

Opinion, everyone has one.

Maybe defining relationship? GP definition of a 'denied relationship' may be different than and AC definition of 'necessary relationships'? Just an opinion and a new thought.

Well yes, it is dramatic isn't it. Let's face it weapons aren't just objects that can be wielded to inflict physical injuries, relationships and the withdrawal of them can also inflict injuries that are emotional and psychological.

As I've already stated, I too understand why GP's who could be a risk to their GC are denied contact, but when an AC denies their parents a relationship with their GC when this is not the case, that is when those children are used as weapons.

Smiles: "Denying children loving grand parents is not protecting them Araabra it is using them as weapons."

I missed this. I question, weapons for what? Sounds dramatic.

Smiles: "You quoted from an earlier post of mine "AC who deny their own children their GP's in the way our ES has done, so so put of spite". Then went on to post "probably the reality is protecting their own children from toxic GP" shock. How dare you imply that my husband and I are toxic."

I am sorry, I did not read ES. I do not wish to imply anything about you.

"Araabra, if you agree every story is different, why then generalise yourself ("Probably the reality is protecting their own children from toxic GP etc")?"

I believe every story is different, parents are doing the best they can protecting their children from toxic GP. I have no problem with estrangement from GP who are not a positive influence on GC.

An excellent post FightingEstrangement. Excellent because from both 'sides' they are so very similar; the same themes and content but seen from different perspectives.

It's human nature and totally understandable that there can be numerous similarities in the way 2 people regard the relationship they have with one another yet fail to recognise that within that relationship they view certain aspects differently.

You asked me if our ES has ever disclosed why he refuses to have any contact with us. In more than 4 years he has only made two statements that have any basis in reality; one gave I think more information than he intended and the other took a factual incident that was then twisted which resulted in our actual intention being given a sinister motive.

Just over a year into our estrangement he left his wife, sent us a heart rendering email which concerned us greatly so we went to see him. A few weeks later he went back and a few months later we thought there were further problems. They lived just down the road from us (we moved away nearly 3 months ago) and her car hadn't been at the house for a couple of weeks.

We went down thinking he was there alone but he wasn't. He stood outside while she was in the house slamming doors because we were there. I became very upset, started crying and stretched out my arms to him saying "..... please". He said "we mustn't do this it causes too much trouble"; that was when he gave away more information than I think he intended.

Before he met her we and my brother invested money in a property to help him get on the housing ladder. She moved in and just before they got married they wanted to move and the 3 of us agreed that our money could be transferred to cover the deposit on the house they wanted to buy. He has since our estrangement, accused us of only investing the money in order to control him.

Apart from those 2 examples, anything else he's accused us of has been untrue; those accusations being made in the first 18 months of our estranegment and since then he's never repeated them. All he has said since is he has 'issues'.

I was very moved by your post. Clearly there have been aspects of your relationship with your mother that continue to cause concern and yet she is a much loved and valued member of your family. She is fortunate in her loving daughter and I'm sure she realises how blessed she is.

Araabra, if you agree every story is different, why then generalise yourself ("Probably the reality is protecting their own children from toxic GP etc")?

Smileless, I don't know your story, so wouldn't dream of commenting on it. Has your ES never given you any idea why he doesn't see you (taking the GC out of the equation for a moment)?

I'm not estranged from my mother, but things have been difficult for years and we've come close to the edge a couple of times. I have to tread very carefully every day. If I wrote my mother's view of our relationship, it would look something like this:

Mum: "I live for my children and grandchildren. They're my world and I'd do anything for them. My daughter's always been my best friend - we've had our ups and downs but I tell her everything and she's always been there for me. I pick up my grandchildren from school every day and we're very close. They don't always behave as well as my children did, but I love them dearly. Since the kids have come along, I don't always get on with my son in law as well as I'd like to - he can be abrupt and rude when he's in that kind of mood. I don't think he was brought up as well as my children or that his values are the same as ours, but I try to overlook things and bite my tongue. We've had the odd fall-out but I tend not to say anything to him - I just keep my distance for a while and talk to my daughter about it. Sometimes my daughter seems troubled and overwhelmed with work/children - I think she deserves better in her husband. I see a lot of my daughter and her family as they live very close by. My husband died 15 years ago after a long illness, and I don't know what I'd do without them - I don't live happily alone so they're everything to me."

Me: "My mum and I were incredibly close when I was young. She's always been very affectionate and loving, and very proud of her family. If I misbehaved or disagreed with her, she would ignore me, sometimes for days at a time. It was her way of dealing with conflict and it still is. As a child, it made me feel utterly desperate and rejected, especially with her being so loving the rest of the time - result being I was almost always 'good'. My dad was ill for a long time and she supported him through it, but also had an affair with a family friend for the majority of her marriage. She started confiding in me about the pressure of looking after Dad and her love life when I was 10, and called me her 'best friend'. I felt responsible for her happiness for many years, and I think that resulted in moderate depression (which I've largely hidden) which started in my twenties. I did try to talk to her a couple of times about it but she shut the conversation down, always saying that I was her rock and the one person in the family she could rely on (my brother had mental health issues from a young age). My husband is a loving, brilliant father and husband. He can be abrupt and rude when he's in that frame of mind, but it isn't deliberate. He's very accepting of the situation with Mum and doesn't resent how big a part of each other's lives we are. He's offended Mum in the past with minor comments, and she's reacted by refusing all contact for weeks at a time. I've tried to talk to her about it, but it ends up in her saying horrible things about him and her then also ignoring me. I suppose she feels betrayed if I don't entirely agree with her, but I end up very conflicted. The children are getting old enough to notice when this kind of thing happens and I find it unbearable. On the outside, we're still very close - I do everything I can for her, see her practically every day and go out with her at the weekend. She does loads for us as a family in terms of collecting the kids from school and looking after them until we finish work. We really appreciate her help and she says she'd have no-one in her life if it wasn't for us and the school run. But on the inside, I still resent the way she controlled me and made her responsible for her emotional wellbeing. I'm continually wary that she'll behave similarly to my children. Every day I have to watch every word and action to avoid offending her and it's exhausting."

I'm sorry that was so long. I'm not in any way suggesting that this is relevant to anyone else's story of estrangement - I just wanted to explain two sides to the same story.

Denying children loving grand parents is not protecting them Araabra it is using them as weapons. I don't know of anyone who would think it appropriate to allow abusive grand parents contact with their GC especially if they are "evil, toxic, otherwise demented GP".

You quoted from an earlier post of mine "AC who deny their own children their GP's in the way our ES has done, so so put of spite". Then went on to post "probably the reality is protecting their own children from toxic GP". How dare you imply that my husband and I are toxic.

We had a very close and loving relationship with our ES until he got married. We continue to have a very close and loving relationship with our other son and his lovely wife. If we were in any way toxic, our relationship with our other son would have also suffered as a result.

I have nothing but compassion for parents who make the difficult and painful decision to cease contact with their own parents in order to protect their children. For them perhaps the estrangement is sufficient and they don't feel the need to back it up with lies and cruel and hurtful emails.

I have an email from our ES when we were trying to find out what was wrong so we could work together to fix it. In his email he wrote "We will never stop you from seeing .... because we know how much you love ..." but he did and he did so because he knows how much we love ..... and how devastated we'd be.

"It seems to be that kids as adults feel the need to blame their parents for everything that's gone wrong in their lives" "AC who deny their own children their GP's in the way our ES has done, do so out of spite."

I know it's easy to generalise, but I really hope people don't believe things like this of every estrangement situation.

Brilliant ^ every story is different. AC are entrusted with protecting their children from evil, toxic, otherwise demented GP.

"AC who deny their own children their GP's in the way our ES has done, do so out of spite."

Probably the reality is protecting their own children from toxic GP.

There have at times been posts from AC who've explained their reasons for cutting their parent(s) out of their and their children's lives. In tragic and upsetting circumstances when this is justified support has always been given on and that has come in part from GP's who find themselves abandoned by and cruelly treated by their AC. without justification.

So I think it's safe to say Adultchild123 that we realise that not not all estrangements are the same, even though there are an awful lot of similarities in quite a few.

Well adultchild eachncase id different no doubt.

Life's is short, all I know is our estranged daughter has done all in her power to ruin her dad and I life,

We did all we could for her always we loved so much her still do. We adored our first Gra dchild ad it was like having my heart ripped out cutmus off so abruptly no discussion, nothing, suddenly we were the total villains, and Eventualky her entire family.

My heart breaks for her dad who did so much for her, and we will never be the same people again, We have done our best rebuilt our,lives and try focus on her brother and those that do love us, but it is damn hard, to accept that she no longer cares about us,

"It seems to be that kids as adults feel the need to blame their parents for everything that's gone wrong in their lives"

"AC who deny their own children their GP's in the way our ES has done, do so out of spite."

I know it's easy to generalise, but I really hope people don't believe things like this of every estrangement situation.

"Your dad's partner being the same age as you is bound to make the situation more difficult for you to accept."

OMG yes. You have my sympathy. I think that makes for an extremely awkward relationship with the new partner. It must just feel very wrong. In these tricky circumstances then credit to you for at least keeping a relationship going.

Thank you eminthebigsmoke. Your dad's partner being the same age as you is bound to make the situation more difficult for you to accept.

I hope that you manage to keep the relationship going and that things improve for all of you.

Smileless Thank you I think you might be right about him thinking I disapprove. I've tried not to give him that impression, but ultimately he knows me well (and may be influenced by other people's reactions - his new partner is my age and therefore 33 years his junior).

It's good food for thought, and I will try to keep things going. Best of luck with your situation - I hope it improves.

So why are you behaving like this towards him when you acknowledge that he has done nothing wrong, and the problem is your inability to accept that he has found a new partner?

I'm not unable to accept that he has a new partner at all, I have totally accepted that, and specifically stated that I want him to be happy. I'm pleased he has met someone who he has so much in common with and makes him happy. Isn't it natural though that our relationship has changed as a result? He visits less often because he plans activities with his partner, and I don't have the same relationship with her as I did with my mother (not out of spite, but simply because she isn't my mother). There is nothing wrong with these things, they are just different to how the situation used to be. I don't know how you have come to the conclusion that I am punishing him?

Leticia - I appreciate that at my age no one is going to try to step-parent. In my view it is particularly because a parent can't be replaced that it can be difficult to see that a parent's partner can be.

I really just came to add my perspective that these things can happen without malice from either party.

Keep in mind eminthebigsmoke that if you do lose all contact with your father, which would be a tragedy when all he's done is move on with his life, that your children will be losing a grand father.

You could regard the new lady in his life as a testimony to the happiness he shared with your mother. I agree totally that it's normal for AC to struggle to come to terms with a surviving parent finding someone new but aren't you being rather selfish, as you live your full life with your 2 young children, expecting him to spend the rest of his alone?

I'm sorry for the loss of your mother, don't lose your father too. Talk to him, he probably senses your disapproval and this could be why his contact with you is infrequent.

IT is sad but it is must be hard too, especially when it is a step mother and she runs the home inevitably in a different way to the real mum, and it means the parental home is either no longer there or looks and smells and sounds different, and the grown up children feel they have to ask permission where before they treated it more like home.

To compound it there is also often the feeling that the father has had his head turned foolishly (especially if the second wife is younger) and irritation if he seems more 'in love' than he was with the real mother.

I do think it sad when people can't deal with a step parent later in life. They are not a replacement and are hardly likely to try to be.

"I don't think either of us has done anything wrong but we are down to very infrequent contact, and conversation by rote when we do speak"

So why are you behaving like this towards him when you acknowledge that he has done nothing wrong, and the problem is your inability to accept that he has found a new partner?

It is so sad that you are punishing your father for this even though you say you want him to be happy. You could end up being very grateful that he has got a new partner, if his health fails an she is there to look after him rather than it falling to you.

This story springs to mind, the mother of an old school friend remarried, when my friend was a young adult. The man she married had an only daughter, who was furious about it and cut herself off as a consequence. It caused him great pain because he adored her. On the surface the DD did have some cause for concern. There was a financial gap between them though not a huge one, and I know my friends mum married in part for financial security. What the DD failed to understand though was what a fantastic person my friends mum was. She was just kind and so full of fun, she absolutely lit up the life of her rather boring new husband and looked after him with so much kindness until she surprisingly died before he did. My friend and her sister continued to support him after her death, and not surprisingly the home and what there was of his modest estate went to them, since his DD made no attempt to reconcile.

I don't know if it's helpful but I'm happy to add my perspective as a child who is almost estranged from their father. I have two children under 6 and my mum died a few years ago. My dad is in a relationship with someone new and we have been drifting towards being estranged since he announced it a couple of years ago.

I suppose as an AC it is difficult to adjust to a major change in the life of your parent. I want him to be happy, and know that it's completely normal for people to move on with their lives. I assume it's also normal for children (even adult ones) to struggle with the perceived replacement of a parent with someone else.

So here we are; I don't think either of us has done anything wrong but we are down to very infrequent contact, and conversation by rote when we do speak. I can't imagine ever writing him a horrible message or asking for him to stay out of my life or my childrens' - but I suppose I don't know what the future holds, and there are probably things that could push it to that point.

The emails are definitely from him Stansgran, I can tell by his extensive vocabulary. Her input is there for sure, when we've read them, I can see her standing behind him.

If he really wanted us to see our GC he'd have facilitated it. Mr. S. has a friend in his 60's whose son refuses to have anything to do with him. If he passes him in the street, he totally ignores him and yet he sees his GC on a regular basis, even having them for over night visits.

AC who deny their own children their GP's in the way our ES has done, do so out of spite. As Mr. S. says, he may hate our guts but why should that mean we can't see our GC?

Mediation "requires both sides to co operate and look closely at their behaviour; do many want to face it?" Well our ES and his wife clearly don't want too Leticia we were told in the first year of our estrangement that they would never agree to mediation.

I really dont think a mediation service would work, kids have a completely different view of their lives where their estranged parents are concerned. It seems to be that kids as adults feel the need to blame their parents for everything thats gone wrong in their lives, sad though estrangement is you cant keep hanging on to that thin thread as it will finally break.

I also don't think that being secular has anything to do with it. Looking into my own family history, late 19th/early 20th century, the estrangement was caused by the very religious.

I started reading this and then found that it was an old thread that I commented on.
I still hold by my comments. It is nothing new. Literature is full of stories of estrangement in families. In many ways living close together made it worse- at least distance makes a difficult relationship easier to manage. Christmas always throws up problems when families are forced into close proximity. Tolstoy has his famous saying about happy and unhappy families.
A mediation service would be good but it requires both sides to co operate and look closely at their behaviour- do many want to face it?