ESTRANGEMENT- The silent epidemic! Let's get this out of the cupboard.

I don't believe Araaba is 70yrs, her terminology is that of a young mum, she has never said how old her C are and has never mentioned GC!

Good posts FE you did well in sorting your situation with your mum

Hello Rosieposiedog123 don't bring me back into this thread lol said with a smile on my face I've been lying low as it all got rather heated and I was scared to come back in case I got my head bitten off lol said with a smile on my face Just to clarify though, it's just the one daughter who wont have anything to do with me, her father and the rest of her family and as for our grandchildren, I'm not even sure they know of our existence. I don't think I could be bothered with the mess lining them up against the wall and shooting them after interrogation would create so have never done that.

ICanSeeBothSides I am sorry to read you have had such a hard time and admire you for moving towards limited contact rather than total cut off between your babies and their (step ?) grandparents. I agree with your point that there are a multidude of reasons as to what causes estrangement.

Araabra it is only with the benefit of hindsight that I accept, in my own personal family situation, that I walked on egg shells, watching my p's and q's for far too long with our daughter. In my case it wasn't that I preferred to get along than being right, it was more that I tread on egg shells, watching my p's and q's to keep the peace. If I had time over then I don't think I would have tread on egg shells but would have perhaps been more assertive. For me, in my own personal situation I feel my walking on egg shells, watching my p's and q's kind of put our daughter in control, she ruled the roost so to speak.

FightingEstrangement I am pleased counselling has given you a way forward where you are happier in your relationship with your mum and that you haven't felt cut off is the only option. I think there are many estranged parents who would willingly go to counselling with their estranged adult kids but so often, the adult kids just wont go but of course that's their choice, no use starting group counselling unless all parties really want to give it a shot.

Eddiecat78 and Smileless 2012 I hope that the day does come when you both are able to consider voluntary work because it certainly worked for me. Like you, I once could not bear the pain of seeing other children or being around them, would keep my blinds closed rather than see neighbours have their adult kids pull up, Mothers Day was awful, the worst of all. But, given time I was able to bite the bullet and go help with a local support group for young families. I'm not saying it was easy at first, it wasn't but I pushed myself to go each week and it was the best thing I ever did towards firstly healing and then being able to work towards regaining my life back after estrangement.

ICantEven I agree separation hurts on all sides and that it is a lose-lose situation.

Toxic was always something that was poisonous to me until a couple of years ago when I started to see the word being used in terms of estrangement. I actually get it now though and one example might be when two people don't want to be in a relationship let's say but continue to post on social media with the intent to hurt the other person, hoping they will see it and be hurt by it, I see this as an example of a toxic relationship.

Hi everyone, I have been lurking and reading for the last couple of days and I thought I would tell my story as an AC that was in an abusive relationship and how it almost came to estrangement. First off I would like to say that toxic people happen. They can be parents/in-laws or adult children, they can be the partners of adult children or the new spouse of a parent/in-law, toxic people come in many forms. In this tread there seems to be a lot of 'us vs them', but the truth of the matter is that you are all telling similar stories, of how a toxic person has affected or is affecting your life and the aftermath. There really should be a forum for support for dealing with toxic people in general, because they come in all shapes, sizes and ages.

When I was 21, I had just come out of a relationship that had many issues, and I met an older man (33) who was very much a bad boy. I knew of his past (he had done jail time for robbery) but felt that he was trying to turn his life around. We got together and 8 months later we were living together. Soon after we got together he had a vasectomy (he had three children in another province that he didn't see nor support) and I was very young and naive, I honestly believed that I didn't want children, which in the end was a blessing. During the first 7 years of our relationship we lived roughly 800kms away from my family and things were mostly peaceful. We would visit once or twice a year, and my parents would come up once as well.

We then moved closer, about 150kms away and started to plan a wedding. At this point in time we have been together for 9 years. Why did I wait so long to get married? My own parents divorced when I was 8 and both remarried people who had also been divorced at least once. I always swore that I was only getting married once, that I would never get divorced. My wedding day was one of the most amazing days of my life, surrounded by friends and family that loved us and wished us the best.

And then 3 days later everything started to change. My new husband abruptly quit his job, and started attacking my support network beginning with my job. He 'believed' that my boss was out to get him, and was keeping him from finding work in a community of over 100,000 people. It didn't matter that he wasn't making an effort, or that he was turning down job offers that he was getting, it was all my bosses fault. I kept trying to get him to explain to me how one person could have that much power in such a large community, and it would always turn into a massive fight. So to keep the peace I worked full-time and he stayed home, to focus on his dream of becoming a writer. At the time I thought this was a good compromise, I got to keep my support network of coworkers and friends, and he got to try to make his dream a reality. This backfired massively, all this had done was isolate him and make everyone in my life the enemy, not because of what they were doing but because he started to become paranoid. We would go and visit friends and family, and I would think that we had a good visit and everything went well, but afterwards there would always be a massive fight about some slight that he felt that had happened. I could never predict what would set him off, and visits eventually became so stressful for me that more and more time would pass between visits.

And then his mom passed away, and shit went from bad to worse. Our fights were becoming more severe, I could no longer support us both by myself, but every time I stood up for myself he would up his abuse another notch, so the next time I wanted or needed to stand up for myself I was afraid of his reaction. When I try to explain why I stayed as long as I did I use the frog in the pot analogy. If you put a frog of water in a pot of hot water it will immediately jump out, but if you put it in a pot of cold water and turn it on to boil, the frog cooks. That was me, his abuse was so long term and insidious it took me a long long time to realize that the water was getting hotter. When things were good, things were great. We were amazing friends, we enjoyed similar hobbies, we laughed a lot, but when things were bad they were ugly.

Then he started to go after my family, that my grandfathers (who both were in their 70's and 80's) were the ones to keep him from finding a job and being a good husband. At the time I knew something was not right but I attributed it to his moms passing and was hopeful that this was just a blip.

And then shit completely hit the fan. We were having an argument about visiting family around the holidays. He didn't want to visit my dad and step-mother and I did, and I refused to back down or be isolated from my family. He had just picked me up from work (because I couldn't be trusted to drive myself to work) and dropped me off at home and sped away. I had no idea where he was going, and I remember being terrified. Turns out he returned to my place of employment and decided to go inside, kicking in doors, trying to get to and beat up my boss. Needless to say he was arrested, and I lost my job that I had held for 7 years.

Like the good wife I thought I was supposed to be, I stood by him through court and was hopeful now that he would get the mental health help that he so desperately needed. Nope! Instead I had lost a large portion of my support network, but I don't blame my friends and coworkers for distancing themselves from me, my husband was dangerous. My family stood by us both through this, they knew most of what was going on but I was still trying to protect him from being looked at negatively, and never told anyone the entire truth. We got through that and I find a new job, and he still refuses to look for work, and he still believes my grandfathers are out to get him. Then he turns that line of thinking on to my younger brother, going as far as to call him up and threaten him and his family. This is when I realized that if I didn't do something soon I was going to lose my family and possibly myself. At this point in time I had been chocked, spit on, and intimidated over and over again. But if it meant protecting the people I loved from him, I would have cut my entire family off from myself. For the longest time I had hoped that one day he would wake up and I would have my husband back, the man that had promised to love and protect me, but that day never came.

Everything came to head one night in February, 4 years ago, where I was started to wake up from the FOG, and I was 34 years old and decided that I couldn't deal with this situation anymore, that I needed to get out. That day I was in the shower and he came in and damn near raped me, scared me so bad. Afterwards he left, and I had hoped he would stay away but he ended up coming back and that night the cops were called. It was awful and in some sick twist I was the one that was escorted from the home that I was the only one paying for. The cops dropped me off in front of a friends apartment building at midnight with only a small bag of things. In an instant my world exploded, I lost my home, my things and my dog.

That was February 22, 2013, and I never went back, and everyday I thank my lucky stars that I survived to tell the story, because had I gone back he would have won. I would have cut-off my family to protect not only them, but myself from his anger and irrational behaviour. And if I had I would have fallen deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole that was our relationship. In my case I believe my husband was schizophrenic, but he refused to even consider getting help, he never once thought that he was wrong, even to this day.

I have since moved on and am in a healthy relationship. We have two beautiful children and our family's are an important part of our lives. My experience has made me a better parent, I know how blessed I am. But I also live with a tiny bit of constant worry. I have only recently filed for divorce because my fear was so strong that he would find me and harm myself or my children, and I still to this day have nightmares about this man.

Wow, that was awfully long winded but I want to say to those parents who have been cut off because of an adult child's toxic partner that I'm sorry for your loss. I would have been devastated to lose my family but I would have in an instant if that meant protecting them from harm. My husband had already started to threaten to make up lies, and spread rumours about members of my family, horrible lies of abuse, molestation, drugs. He threatened to hurt careers and family's. My behaviour was changing to prevent the people that I loved from getting hurt, and to lessen the abuse I was suffering from as well. I'm sure to my parents it looked like I was pulling away, and I'm sure they were very concerned and hurt. I was doing what I thought was best, and that was protecting them even if I couldn't tell them that was what I was doing. I know there are a multitude of reasons as to what causes estrangement, and that my story is just one perspective but sometimes it can born out of love and fear, and not hate.

PS. I also have a toxic step-parent so I can see the situation from both sides, and although I haven't cut them out, as I see her toxicity being directed towards my daughter I've moved towards extremely limiting contact to protect her from the abuse that I suffered at my the hands of my step-mother growing up, and as an adult. Come at me all you want, but I will not stand by and let anyone hurt my babies.

Yet again your posts are not making sense celeb. You are fine to drive people away in your own thread, but this is AIBU.

I think Arrabra has been a pain in the arse. She said she is 70, but she accuses parents of that era of being abusers knowing fine well that a smack in her day was fine.

We then have Dorothy the GP whose children and grandchildren have nothing to do with her. That might be because she would have lined her family up against a wall and shot them after interrogation.

I think you should keep out of it celeb. Smiless is doing well by listening to people and putting an intelligent POV across.

Arrabra bite your tongue? Wow ? not something u practice on here.

Do you not have any basic social skills regarding relationships, what kind of relationship is based on vein afraid to discuss anything?
Of course offspring will talk about their relationship with a caring parent,
Mainly a daughter will sons tend to keep quieter.

Fairydoll u did make me laugh excellent post

How wonderful to see a couple of sensible posts iam64 and mceem??

I too wonder at why such level of animosity is directed at the sad plight of us Estranged grandparents by arrabra I have already asked her how she has so much time to post on here if she is such a doting mum. I think the response was normal insults.

mcem bump

I prefer getting along to being right !
How about trying that here and cutting down on the aggression to posters who clearly don't want your vitriol advice.

I usually read but rarely post on the threads dealing with estrangement between, usually, parents and their adult children. I've been surprised by the level of animosity and anger directed by Araabra towards other contributors. Her comment that walking eggshells and minding P's and Q's is the height of healthy relationships between adults of any relationship isn't something I recognise as healthy.
The idea that an adult child can't talk to their mother about relationship/marital stress is total nonsense. I talked to my mother, my daughters (and sons in law) talk to me. You don't need to seek therapy or keep your lips buttoned. I'm not knocking therapy at all, it can be a fantastic support, as it was for Fighting Estrangement. Most of us are sensitive and sensible enough to be able to listen and support our children without falling out with their partners. Letting off a bit of steam is healthy. Being able to accept that's what it is rather than make a drama out of it, is healthy.

To be estranged from a chld/parent you have loved is a pain beyond description. FE1's comments about the way her therapist helped her see things more clearly, to understand more about the need for boundaries etc may help others to seek effective support.

...have to content

No Araabra, it's not astonishing at all that the people here refuse to accept your ill-informed perception of their possible part in estrangement.

For someone who has, supposedly, a happy life ('I love my life' etc etc - posted on another thread) - you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time on Gransnet pontificating about how/why/where estranged GP's/parents have gone wrong.

As Smileless so rightly says.... don't ever think of becoming a counsellor. Your clients would be queuing up to jump off a bridge.

Maybe you'll just have to be content yourself with being a voice crying in the wilderness.....

Your post didn't sound or come across as smug FE you've given to those of us who've never experienced counselling an insight into how it may help.

eddiecat78 "Perhaps Araabra would prefer it if he quietly threw himself off a bridge when he is in despair" NO, I was perfectly clear, I feel AC should not talk to their mums (or any family member) about marital difficulties. Counselors are not intimately involved and won't take sides.

I don't feel I am a perfect parent (nor is OH). My dds are as difficult as any other ac, so I mind my "P and Q" and bite my tongue. I prefer getting along to being "right".

(If that last post sounds smug or in any way that I think there's always another option to estrangement, it's not intended that way. I believe that sometimes it's the only option - it just depends on the individuals involved).

eddiecat, it must be horrendous hearing your son in a desperate situation.

When someone is so inconsistent in their behaviour, you really do doubt yourself (or I did, anyway). I can't emphasise enough how much talking to a professional helped me. Even when you're not going through one of those crisis situations, just being able to offload gave me strength and perspective. I'm not suggesting that your son should stop confiding in you, but do you think he'd consider finding a counsellor or therapist?

I didn't have any previous experience of 'talking therapy' and expected the psychologist I spoke to just respond with "and how did that make you feel" to everything I said! She didn't though - she gave me real clarity about what was acceptable/unacceptable behaviour, and helped me to understand ideas of 'boundaries'/what a healthy relationship looks like, none of which I'd considered before. Counselling hasn't completely resolved the difficulties I have in my relationship with my mum, but it's given me a way forward where I'm happier and I haven't felt like my only option is estrangement.

Well eddiecat with you by his side I'm sure he'll continue to find a way to cope.

Thanks FE - my son has sometimes said quite seriously "Mum, I feel like I`m going mad" - because he doesn`t know from one minute to the next how his wife is going to be. He isn`t on the phone to me every 5 minutes - he speaks to me when he is absolutely desperate and feels he has no-one to talk to. This is often when there has been some sort of crisis - how is he meant to find a counsellor at the drop of a hat? He also knows that if he decides to stay in the marriage we will support that decision - and anything he has said in the past won`t affect that. Perhaps Araabra would prefer it if he quietly threw himself off a bridge when he is in despair

"I like my DDs and am pleased to get along well with them"

Really? What do you want...a medal? I adore my sons and they I...and I have never felt the need to walk on egg shells with them. Our relationship is too honest for that. What are you?...12! Stop setting yourself up as some sort of patron saint of mothers.

This has reached playground level now so I'll leave you to polish your halo.

Goodness Araabra how did you come by this wonderful 'insight' into the minds and hearts of people you've never met? In your view we cut out our son; that a mother won't forget what she's been told in anger about her AC's partner.

Both of our sons would confide in me, one still does and does your insight shed any light as to why? It's because I listen, I give what support and help I can without taking sides. I don't automatically assume my son is without blame or responsibility because he's my son.

Perhaps you should take the time to read FightingEstrangements last and brilliantly presented post if you haven't done so already. Posted by an AC who sadly has first had experience of dealing with someone who is toxic, who understands the need to confide in someone they trust implicitly.

GrannyRainbow "Araabra I really hope that your egg shell walking and minding your p's and q's continues to work for you, so you can continue with your self aggrandising diatribes." Thanks, walking on eggs does work FOR ME. I like my DDs and am pleased to get along well with them. No diatribe here, though it is astonishing that so many here refuse to view their part in these little dramas.

Araabra I really hope that your egg shell walking and minding your p's and q's continues to work for you, so you can continue with your self aggrandising diatribes. I also sincerely hope you never consider becoming a counsellor. Your arrogant, directive, no room for argument views are totally at odds with the concept. I wonder why you feel the need to constantly post on this forum when you obviously - in your own opinion - have all the answers. If it's your belief that you are helping, trust me...you're not.

Oh and my relationship with my son is such that I need only look at his face to know when he is troubled. THAT'S how we are, despite the she devil who is trying to destroy us. And then, and only then, am I there to listen if that is what he needs.

FightingEstrangement1 "I do agree that talking to parents about spouses can cause issues down the line, but if the parent respects their adult child, they should be able to listen, support and step back afterwards." IF the parent is not judgemental or always assuming their child to be in the right, maybe it works for some people. However, I see talking to mum as letting another into the inner workings of marriage, and that's not a good thing, imo.

Smileless2012 "I said that I was happy with the choice I'd made, just not happy that I had to make it." Well then, I'm glad you're happy with your choice. That we should all be so blessed. I'm happy to mind "P and Q" and walk on eggs whilst biting my tongue. Different strokes for different folks. I am not so happy with so much childminding, but I'll find a go round.

Much of the problem in talking about a spouse is that mum won't forget what was said in anger when the anger ends and the couple is happy again.

That's true, for me at least. I can't share issues with my husband with my mum - partly because she would worry for me on what I'd consider a 'normal' level for any mother, and partly because she would probably overdramatise the situation in her own mind. For example, my husband snapped at me once in front of her (in 20 years). She convinced herself he was beating me and took every opportunity for weeks to try to convince me to leave him.

I do agree that talking to parents about spouses can cause issues down the line, but if the parent respects their adult child, they should be able to listen, support and step back afterwards. Though that's easy for me to say, not yet having adult children myself.