ESTRANGEMENT- The silent epidemic! Let's get this out of the cupboard.

Icaneven I apologize for not reading your posts & meant no offence, I did start reading, but when I saw the length of it, I really didn't have enough time, obviously I shouldn't have been honest and said, and I am really interested in everyone's comments, I really am, when I get time I'll go back and read all of yours, I have obviously read your last one.

I am leading a yoga retreat in India in a couple of weeks and have a ton of work to do for that, so shouldn't be on here at all...but here I am 'The real Marigold hotel' new series on Mondays, 4 parter, is set where I'm going in Kerala. Now I have to leave for work..

Bibbity if I got to choose a superpower, it would totally be mind reading.

By the time I finish typing I've been logged out. I have to make sure I C&P so I don't lose everything, like I did with my first entry. You read that right, I wrote that ridiculously long post twice.

I, like you, am interested in discussing what families should and should not accept in their relationships with each other. It's so complex because any given relationship between two people who are family affects more than just the two people in question. It's a delicate balancing game, making sure you enrich your life with family relationships but keep at bay any potentially unhealthy relationships. And this may sound callous, but I think some people find it upsetting that "family" no longer means a free pass behaviour-wise. In the long term, that should mean that family relationships all get healthier, but is that what will actually happen? And how do you articulate that unconditional love does not equal unconditional acceptance of bad behaviour? We have always known it doesn't, but it has generally been applied by parents toward children, not the other way round.

Icanteven it might help if I actually give the full story....
Or maybe you should start reading my mind.

I keep having to parent and can actually have to come back to a post 3 times before it's finished so I apologise that sometimes they make no sense.

Bibbity that makes much more sense. I knew I must be missing something.

Smileless you don't have to agree with that statement. I'm not sure I do either. It's just not productive to respond to that statement with arguments and attacks based on a different issue. I'm sorry that you've felt attacked in the past, but it isn't helpful to carry that through into this discussion. Who is at fault in a CO and whether AC have the right to CO are not just like apples and oranges, it's apples and trees. Both of those topics are certainly related to any discussion about the general topic of estrangement, but it isn't helpful to lump them together.

Also, I have to respectfully disagree with you on the matter of the sides of truth. The concept that there are 3 sides to every story is commonly brought up in therapy as a way of helping people to realize that when you are emotionally involved in a situation, it's almost impossible to be objective. Yes, people can tell outright lies, but that doesn't mean that hearing both perspectives, truthfully told, tells the whole story. Often, it doesn't.

Icanteven what I was discussing with regards to posting pictures of GC was done on this board by a poster whom is CO by her Child.
Pictures were posted of children whose parents have chosen not allow in the posters life. The parents had not shared the pictures with the poster. The parents were not aware the poster had the pictures even. So I am quiet confident that they would in no way have allowed the poster to share the pictures to Gransnet.
If I were that parent and I had discovered these pictures I would be beyond furious and would instruct legal assurance that it was stopped immediately.

ICantEven thank you, I do love my daughter and grandchildren (even though I have never met them) and do you know, deep down I feel that she loves me and her father too. You are absolutely spot on when you write that everyone hurts. In our own family dynamics, we as parents are hurting because of the cut off, our daughter's grandparents are hurting because they too have been cut off and our daughter must be hurting I feel, hurting about something to have cut her family off. I have accepted that the only way forward is to leave her be, it has been 10 years now and I think had we just left her be in the beginning that we would not have reached the ten years mark, we would have reconciled long before now. We were so desperate though and kept going back to ask her why, sending her emails, sending her texts, sending her gifts, sending her loving notes. If only we'd have let her be and accepted that sometimes there is no why, it is what it is. End Of.

Thank you Fightingestrangement. Yes we've read quite a bit about borderline personality disorder and she ticks the majority of the boxes. Perhaps we should read more to try and understand our son's position and why he's behaved in the way that he has.

Well let's hope when their children grow up they agree and don't regret being denied their GP's. Let's hope that when they ask why their parents did what they did, they'll be satisfied with "There is no need for justification. (We) are adults. (We) have every single right to choose whom (we) have in (our) lives and who you had in yours.

I've been on GN for over 4 years IcantEven and for 4 years have read many cruel and nasty posts aimed at EP's and GP's so yes, I am defensive. Recently we've been accused of reveling in our martyrdom and self pity. In the past we were referred to as a witches coven; yes it's horrible isn't it. I've read your posts and responded sympathetically because as I said, I'm sorry for all that your family has gone through.

I don't agree that "AC have the right to CO their parents, even for no apparent reason" and in so doing deprive their children of their GP's. No one has 'the right' to inflict pain and suffering on others just because they want too and just because they can.

Smileless, have you ever read anything about borderline personality disorder? What you've described re. your DIL's behaviour made me think of the lists of common traits.

Reading about this could throw some light on the kind of relationship your son has with his wife, and why he's dealt with it in the way he has.

It's really helped me, for what it's worth. My situation is different in that my mother behaves in ways which could be viewed as 'toxic' and I'm the person who has to tread on eggshells to keep the relationship functioning. There is loads of material out there on the same behaviours in husband/wife relationships (as well as parent/adult child).

Bibbity and Dorothy16 I agree that grandparents should respect parents' wishes, especially regarding things like posting photos on the Internet. My husband and I personally don't want photos of our children on the Internet, and we have made that clear. I would be very upset if someone violated my son's privacy in that way, knowing that we have made clear our expectations on that issue. However Bibbity, some parents are totally fine with it, so you can't assume that just because people post photos that they are disrespecting the child's parents. I'm not sure if that's what you were saying, maybe I misunderstood.

Smileless I think Bibbity is suggesting that people who post pictures of GC against their parents expressed wishes are behaving childishly and with entitlement, and I have to say I agree. I am also on BabyCenter and I can see where she's coming from, because I read all the stories from parents who are hurt and angry that something important to them like their child's privacy isn't as important to someone else as their desire to show off the GCs. There are many, many of these stories. If someone has permission to post photos, that's different. And it's true, those parenting boards are full of stories of AC dealing with really difficult GP, but it's also true that when someone makes a post where they themselves are clearly being unfair to the GPs, people do call them out on it. Those boards are frequented by all kinds of parents, not just parents with difficult ILs or those who are considering CO of a relative.

It seems to me that you are getting defensive. Using words like "the same deluded view" is unnecessarily attacking a group of people who deserve the same compassion you do. I've read every post here, no one has ever suggested that all EGP are guilty and all AC are innocent, simply that AC have the right to CO their parents, even for no apparent reason.

Yogagirl, I SMH. You are of course entitled to read or not read anything you like, but your desire to announce to me that you are dismissing my point of view because you don't consider my thoughts or my story worthy of your time is unnecessarily, well, mean. I took the time to read all 35 pages of this thread before I said anything, including all of your comments. If you think you can productively participate in any discussion, in real life or on the Internet, while willfully choosing not to listen to one of the participants at all, you are wrong. Perhaps you don't do that to people you care about, but if you want to preserve relationships with people, you should be willing to listen to what they have to say. You really shouldn't continue to be part of a discussion that you aren't willing to hear all the perspectives on.

Level of justification?
There is no need for justification. They are adults. They have every single right to chose whom they have in their lives.
End of.

Yogagirl.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'parenting boards' Bibbity. If someone posting pictures of their GC is viewed as "disgusting" with a level of entitlement", a "level of ignorance" that isn't "normal" because "it shows a level of ignorance that is not normal. It shows a complete ignorance of understanding" and it makes you think if they do that what else do they do", then how on earth do these parenting boards view AC and their partners who with out justification and provocation, cut their parents/p.i.l. out of their lives.

Or does everyone on these parenting boards have the same deluded view that all EP's are guilty and all estranging AC are innocent?

As for wondering what else they do, as painful as it is not have our son and GC in our lives, at least we don't have her to contend with because God knows what else she's capable of doing.

Bibbity, in my opinion grandparents should always respect the wishes of their grandchildren's parents with regard to posting photographs and personal details of their grandchildren on the world wide web. I have grandparent friends who are not estranged from their adult children and grandchildren who would love to post photographs of their grandchildren but can't because their grandchildren's parents just do not want their children's photographs on social media. I do not have any photographs of my three grandchildren but if I did have then no way would I post them on any internet forum or social media site because this would not endear my daughter to reconcile more it would enrage her and put a few more bricks on the wall she is building. So I can see your point and agree.

Grannyrainbow

I am in complete agreement with Dorothy regarding acceptance for the sake of the grandchildren. My situation is rather different inasmuch as I am as close to my son as I always have been....emotionally at least, though not physically due to geography. For this I am eternally grateful, and it's for his sake that I do accept the situation. When he met his wife, I welcomed her and we got on well, although meetings were infrequent due to the distance. They married when their baby was on the way....and everything changed. In four years I have seen the child just once when he was six months old. She refuses to visit. I am unable to travel alone due to poor health. What is by far the worst and most heartbreaking thing is that she refuses to allow my son to bring him on his own. Has physically attacked him - in front of the child - when he has tried. For that reason I have told my son not to try any more. Shall I tell you what saddens me the most? I was so thrilled when they first got together. They seemed perfect for each other. Now, my son has lost all respect and love for her. Why doesn't he leave? He can't afford to. He lives and works in one of the most expensive cities in the world and is unable to support two households. Also, he knows that his wife would do everything in her power to stop him from seeing his child.

So, to those of you who appear to be so very sure that estranged grandparents are toxic, let me tell you that there are as many different stories as there are people.

Smileless that is the difference between the boards.
On the parenting boards a poster who did something like that would be corrected. Many many many times.
Because it's disgusting.
Because somebody with that level of entitlement that level of ignorance is not normal.
It shows a complete lack of understanding. And it makes me think if they do that what else do they do?

Good posts Dorothy maybe after 10yrs estrangement I'll be in the same place as you, but I'm getting there.

noteven sorry couldn't read your posts....too long

My s.i.l is a pathological liar, that is a fact due to his drug taking from the age of 13yrs, effecting his brain. He would put scenarios [many] from one person onto another [me] it would be, sometimes a year before you realized hang on a minute, that wasn't me, it was... Even before any of this happened, I remember my D saying to me 'mum, I never know when J is telling the truth or lying, he's always lying!'

Posting pictures isn't something I have or would ever do. My way of dealing with our estrangement isn't everyone's and I am not here to judge, that isn't for me to do and it isn't for you to do either Bibbity.

What gives you the right to feel that because someone has posted pictures of their GC presumably because they find it acceptable, that they are not telling the whole truth?

There are not 3 sides to every story, there are 2, the truth and a lie. When someone fabricates stories about you, it's not because they're "telling the story through their eyes, through they're own perceptions and interpretations" it's because they're lying.

When my d.i.l. accused me of ignoring her, of hanging up the 'phone while she was talking to me she was lying. In your example Person A and Person B may well have a completely different version of a conversation that took place, but if the conversation never took place to begin with, the one who says it did is lying.

Until you've been on the receiving end, until you've experienced your family being torn apart because of someones lies, you have absolutely no idea the damage that lying can do.

So you don't see anything wrong with posting pictures of GC on an open Internet forum without the parents permission?

For me that alone would strongly indicate to me that the person whom thinks that's exceptable was not telling the whole truth.

Also there are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth.
You can say that one side is telling the truth and one side is lying but that's wrong.
Because both are telling the story through their eyes, through they're own perceptions and interpretations.

So while one person may not find an action/comment offensive another would.
Person A would tell the story of a boring mundane conversation.
Person B would tell the story of a horrible conversation filled with insults etc.

Fabulous Post 17.41 smileless Well done/written

Thank you IcantEven. It's nice to get support but that's not always what's being looked for. I don't mind being questioned; I have nothing to hide and answer any questions I'm asked, but I do mind the assumption from some that all EP's are at fault; I mind that very much.

Perhaps if your m.i.l. came on here she would tell a story similar to mine, if my d.i.l. came on here she may well tell a story similar to yours but in her case it would be a story, a piece of fiction. I haven't told a story, I've told the truth.

"You seem to support dangerous and potentially dangerous actions and that's what makes some people question the validity of [EGP] threads here". I give what support I can to parents who are living with estrangement. Posters who put all blame and responsibility on the shoulders of parents who are estranged, are the ones supporting "potentially dangerous actions".

Dorothy16 your attitude toward your children and the way you talk about a bad situation just oozes unconditional love. Even strangers on the Internet can tell that you probably didn't do something to deserve being CO - or rather, if you did, that you are reasonable enough that a good open, honest discussion could mend what's been broken. Whatever happened between you and your daughter, I hope you get that chance.

Smileless, I can see how much your son's behaviour has hurt you. I am not in any way saying that you're wrong about your DIL. You are in the best position to know the truth, not us. I'd just like to point out to you that if my MIL came on here, she would probably tell a very similar story to yours. You really can't expect strangers on the Internet to know, from one side, or even after hearing both sides, whether what's really happening between a mother and her son is the result of a mother who is incapable of seeing how her behaviour is abusive, or a new partner who is abusive and attempting to isolate the partner. In any given story, those are two equally likely possibilities.

I'd love to say that, in our situation, people will understand that I'm not abusing or controlling my husband by insisting that his mother is a danger to our son, because we are open to her having a relationship IFF she changes her behaviour so that it is no longer abusive. Unfortunately, we know from experience with my SIL, who didn't actually cut her mother out but just didn't fall for the emotional blackmail when her mother threatened to cut herself out, that that story was told by my MIL as her daughter cutting her out for no good reason. So wherever my MIL tells her story, it's likely we might sound like the bad guys. We have to get past our desire for others to like us or agree with us and do what is best for our son.

When the situation is turned the other way round and it's an abusive or toxic partner, it's even harder for the party who is in the right to appear that way, because their choice in the situation, if they are given one at all, is to allow the partner to abuse the child and themselves, without question, or to allow the child to cut them out. The grandchildren are collateral damage in that breakdown, not at the centre of the issue. It is so much easier when you can simply look from the grandchild's perspective and then choose to act in their best interest.

What people do when they question whether you were actually part of the problem is technically victim blaming, and that is wrong. Unfortunately, when you're dealing with abuse situations, one of the most common tactics abusers use is DARVO - deny, attack, reverse victim and offender - and that sometimes makes it really difficult for outsiders to identify who the victim actually is, sometimes even for the victim to recognize that they ARE a victim. That doesn't justify or excuse victim-blaming, it just makes everything really convoluted - which is why an Internet forum is inherently going to be a place where it will be difficult to get people to say, without doubt, that a particular party truly is the victim (especially so if the participants in a thread have been the victim and had their abuser DARVO them). It is equally possible that neighbours and friends sympathizing with you could be proof that you are the victim, or proof that you are an abuser who is very good at DARVO. It's never going to be possible for strangers on the Internet to tell the difference. I don't say that for your situation specifically, because it's for any and every abuse situation, and that is why the argument just won't die. If you believe you and your son are victims of an abusive DIL (and I'm not saying you aren't) you will find more support in in-person support groups, where everyone there is in the same (or at least a similar) situation - because you deserve to be supported and not questioned.

What everyone can agree on, is that even in situations where the CO is justified, the separation hurts on all sides. Everyone misses out on relationships, and everyone will need to grieve those losses. Sometimes, that's what needs to happen because that is what is healthiest for all involved; sometimes it isn't, but either way, it's a lose-lose situation.

Bibbity "I have absolutely no doubt there are BSC absuive D/SIL. I've seen them on our boards and they get absolutely shredded and put in their place."

"Can't say I've seen the same happen here though."

*"You seem to support dangerous and potentially damaging actions and that's what makes some people question the validity of [EGP] threads here.*"