ESTRANGEMENT- The silent epidemic! Let's get this out of the cupboard.

I'm not sure whether the expression 'magic vagina' is an expression that we are familiar with in the UK.

You are somewhat OTT in your opinion that some mothers can't believe their baby boy would leave them etc etc

I think most mums are only too happy to see their sons happily married- after all, if their sons didnt leave, who would want an adult male child living with them? Most of my friends (as well as myself) have sons and we were all pleased (believe me!) to see them move on. I think we miss daughters more when they leave.

You're putting forward an extreme viewpoint which is unfortunate and negates any positive input you may have.

Got to travel on now.

Bibbity, generally speaking I am in total agreement with you about exposing photographs and personal details of any other individual without their permission (if an adult) and/or without the permission of parents (if a child).

I often wonder if those who have been cut off do this because they think the family member/s are following their on line activity ?

I see public postings on social media sites and blogs as being in two different categories :-

1. Some cut off individuals are reaching out in a kindly sort of way without mention of estranged family or the estrangement. This I think is OK.

2. Some cut off individuals however, are out of order in their public postings I feel and are just out to name and shame those who are causing them hurt. This I think is not OK and will never endear those who have cut them off to consider reconcilliation rather the public postings will only add fuel to the fire.

Where children are involved though, I think of them first before the quarelling adults and try to imagine what it will be like for the children one day to come by social media sites, Gransnet, Mumsnet, Blogs, Facebook pages on estrangement and all else out there and read all their grandparents have written about their mum and dad. It's wrong. But, that's my opinion and each to their own I suppose.

And that is exactly what we mean when we say 'magic vagina'
It means that they can't believe they're baby's boy would dare leave them or maybe even stand up to them.
How dare he tell them to stop abusing his wife.
He'd have never blamed them before.
It must be that woman he's with.

Thank you Dorothy - it is interesting, and helpful to read about your experience. I'm sorry you've been through similar.

DH has said that he would CO his parents if their behaviour worsened, and I believe him. I don't want that to happen though, and I'm hoping (against all odds, perhaps!) that they soften as they get older. I certainly wouldn't push for estrangement to happen, as I think it would just cause an inevitable wedge between DH and I, especially as his parents age and are likely to need support. It has to be his decision, although as you say, for now I think the distance plus supervision, while not ideal, is working as a compromise.

I'm very aware of not wanting history to repeat itself; as much as I don't think I'd ever act like my MIL has, I would hate to think that in the future, I might not get to see one of my children.

DH has spoken to his parents - calmly, face to face, over the phone, in a letter and with me both there and absent. Each time has met with the same response; that this is all my doing, that I'm a b*tch who is ruining their lives and taking away their son/GC. This is followed by hysteria, days of relatives phoning to say that MIL is ill, can't eat, can't sleep, and we need to apologise.

I don't think that they can entertain the idea that they might ever behave less than perfectly; it's too easy to blame it on me, the woman who took their son 200 miles away (although it was a joint decision, not that they'd believe him!).

But then when people talk about things before the estrangement, they are chastised for pointing out that they helped their children by being told "you dont give in order to get back" and so on..
Anyway, I have a friend whose daughter cut her off for about 13 years. Not only wouldn't see or speak to her, but returned money, torn up, and sent a letter to my friend on her birthday telling her to kill herself.
One day, the daughter reached out to her mum, and they are reunited. On being asked what on earth caused the vitriol in the first place, the daughter says it was just a 'teen angst' thing, and she is sorry.
So, there may be hope..

I disagree.
Those who initiate the CO can give chronological intricate details of what brought them to make that decision.
Responses are usually 'yes I can see why you had to do that'
9/10 the Estranged only says 'I never saw it coming'
So that opens up a dialogue.
What was the behaviour like, what events happened prior.
That's not going on the offensive.
If you post something on the internet then people will question/ ask for clarification.

EdithCrawley you have tolerated so much from your mother in law and are certainly the bigger person here to have thought the whole situation through very carefully from all perspectives and conclude that for now, limited supervised (by you) contact is the way you want it rather than total cut off and the 200 miles distance between you is definately for the best.

If the time comes when you do feel that total cut off is the only way forward for the sakes of your family unit, it does not sound as if your husband would feel comfortable about cutting his parents out (please correct me if I am wrong here). I don't know quite how to put this so as not to cause you further upset and hope you'll understand what I mean when I say, if both you and your husband are not in joint agreement to cut out his parents, then where would that leave your relationship with him, do you feel ? Your husband will feel torn, this doesn't mean to say that he will love you any less but that he will love his parents too and maybe would prefer a compromise of some sorts.

Maybe he could consider having a word with them face to face, not in emails, texts or on the phone but face to face, without the children being present and preferably with you there too (if you could handle that). It might be that they don't get it, I'm not making any excuses for your mother in law's behaviour towards you but she might just not get it and maybe if her son does have a word with her it would give her food for thought.

They are in their 70's, 200 miles away, from experience they'll expect you to do all the running to them in anycase in not too many years and this could work well, two brief visits a year maybe ?

I speak from experience by the way, my daughter used to go see my in laws with her father twice a year, we live 500 miles away and I was ok with that, in between times there was letter box contact (supervised by me) and phone calls between grandaughter and grandparents.

I cut out my in laws over 40 years ago, never stopped my husband from going, never stopped them from seeing their grandaughter.

If I had my time over, would I have done that, totally cut off my in laws ?

Me, personally, no, I would not have cut off my in laws, I would have tried reach a happy medium because I now question, did I just teach my daughter that it was OK to cut people out, has history repeated itself, she has cut off from the whole of her family, has cut off just been carried down generation to my daughter and so will her children see that she has cut her family off and cut her off in years to come ? ? ?

This posting is about me, something that happened / is still happening to me, another side to a story, it neither offers advice nor criticism to any other person reading and I just thought you might be interested in my share Edith.

You are correct GoodDaughter

The vast majority of estranged posters ARE sympathetic - it tends to be the posters who have either initiated an estrangement, or who perhaps would like to CO their inlaws that tend to go on the offensive.

EdithCrawley. Your story gives yet another perspective to the dynamic of estrangement. An AC - your husband - unable or unwilling to become fully estranged from parents who certainly sound toxic. Thus leaving the possibility of a problem in your relationship. Again, there are so many variables to estrangement and it's consequences.

I know with 100% certainty that my own son would never want me in his life if I behaved this way. The fact that he does is comforting, even though it doesn't solve our problem.

I agree Goddaughter.
For example I fully understand why smiless had to say no more.
The way that her son and DIL were treating her was awful.
She had every right to tell them it wasn't acceptable.
It was then their choice to effectively throw a tantrum because they couldn't treat her badly anymore.
That's awful and I have the upmost sympathy for her.
If they were to post here I would ask them what gave them the right to treat someone like that and for them to get down off their high horses.
A poster posted pictures of her daughters wedding.
I found her Facebook page in less then a minute.
One poster used to have an open blog with very identifying information.
I've see other people who follow the thread but never post say if they found those AC they'd heavily suggest they get solicitors and take legal action against the posters.

You missed my point completely!

I am not commenting on the contents of Ediths post

I remember your earlier posts here where you responded to EGP's with a certain amount of vitriol and pointed out the attraction of the 'magic virginia' (sic). I note your more recent posts have been 'softer.'

this my last last chance (at an Internet cafe) to post on Gransnet until we are back in Uk at weekend so be gentle with me..

The vast majority of those on here suffering from estrangement come across as very sympathetic.

Sometimes you don't need 'both sides' to see that there's an alternative truth out there. There is a poster on here whose posts show a total lack of awareness of any perspective other than her own, who has repeatedly posted identifying information about their AC that leads to their full name and picture with one Google search, that is always listing the things they did/gifts together bought for the AC and who every so often lets slip a little nugget of information that makes my jaw drop. I have never heard a word from their estranged child but I have great sympathy for them.

*damage
I don't even know what language my autocorrect is anymore

And now she's going to Falange another generation. That's so tragic.

I have repeatedly showed sympathy to those posters who I believe like smiless.

He showed her abusers pictures of her children. Please explain how that is justifiable?

I believe the poster as it's the only side presented until other wise proven incorrect.

Children are 1 and 2.

This is the only issue we have (although it is a big one). I'm not going to leave him; I believe he's utterly damaged by her upbringing of him, and is still a child where she's concerned.

Her behaviour ramped up when I was pregnant with my first child; before then she was awful to me, but I could stomach that as I'm a tough cookie. It started with silly, ignorable behaviour like calling the baby hers, saying that she hoped I'd give the baby 'proper' milk, and not BF, and that I needed to not be so clingy over my newborn. Nothing major. I think the more J ignore/gently correct unacceptable behaviour, the more it infuriates her and the more she pushes the boundaries. I just can't allow her to behave like that around my children.

We live 200 miles away (on purpose), so luckily contact is not too frequent.

Bibbity

Your husband is worthless and doesn't deserve you Do you know Edith's husband personally?

You are quick on sympathy for AC experiencing difficulty with parents/inlaws but elicit much less for GP's/parents who have been CO. As has been pointed our many, many times, there are two sides to every story.

My point is this: .if you take Ediths's story at face value, then you should afford that courtesy to the heartbroken EGP's who post here.

Edith nothing personal- be assured!!

So he's either calling you a liar or complacent in your abuse.
I'd seriously be losing my ever loving shit If I were you.
The fact she showed your abuser photos of your children is the vilest thing I think I've ever heard.
Tell him to go and collect his balls from her bag and sort her out!
If she was his friend would he tolerate this?
So what makes her so special that she can hurt you and his children?

No he shouldn't be talking to them at all. There is no coming back from what she did.
It wasn't a mistake. It wasn't an oops. She st out to hurt you all.
How old are your children? When did everything happen?
I'd file a police report and start laying the ground work for a court order that states she can't be near your children and then I'd threaten to divorce his pathetic arse.

Bibbity - my DH knows everything. He's torn; he doesn't want to believe that his mother can be as bad as she is. Who would?

He said to me that if he sat down with his parents, and asked them to be reasonable, and show respect for the way we do things (and presumably stop acting like horrors!) they would turn it into WW3 and he'd never see them again. They would not (and have not in the past) cope with any perceived criticism, and while I think it's a weak way to do things, this is what he's chosen to do.

Smiless the bible reference posters refer to is

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh” (Genesis 2:24 KJV).

Jesus Christ Edith I am so so sorry.
Your husband is worhlesss and doesn't deserve you.
I understand what you mean about monitoring the situation. I'm currently giving my MiL enough rope to hang herself with.
But you should tell him everything. Hopefully he's decent enough to be ashamed and cut her out.
People are living into their 100s so it's not like you can cross your fingers and hope nature takes care of her.

I've been following this thread for a while, and have debated whether or not to post, as I'm not a Gran, but a DIL with a manipulative, nasty MIL. Apologies - this is likely to be long!

I believe that there are 'toxic' people in all walks of life, and it's sheer bad luck to encounter then as a Mum, MIL, DIL - or whoever. My heart goes out to those of you experiencing clear pain on a daily basis; I can't begin to understand how much it hurts not to see those you crave a close relationship with.

I'm not estranged from my MIL, although we've come close. Being in her life (and allowing her to have contact with my children) is a constant battle, and leaves me feeling sick and shaky every time I see her. I do so for my husband, as I don't believe it's right for me (in my particular circumstances) to draw lines in how their relationship will be.

My MIL would tell you that I am difficult, and cold, and stuck up (she's said these things to me frequently). I am just anxious around her, and while she is wonderful at acting caring and loving in front of others, when alone she has acted despicably and denied it, laughing while I questioned my own mind.

There's a very long history, which I won't bore you all with, but highlights include mocking me about my childhood abuser, and telling me that she had shown this person photos of my children, purposefully making my child cry and smirking at me, then denying it when my husband walked in, and undermining me at every opportunity while smiling and laughing at my distress.

On the outside, she appears caring and generous, but even my husband agrees that she has an evil streak. As much as I would love not to see her, my husband would take the children without me (as he hadn't seen her grabbing their wrists, making them cry etc) and I have to be there to protect them.

The decision not to go NC is partly as I am strong enough to monitor her relationship with my children, although if her behaviour worsens, who knows. I have to protect them from her nasty streak.

I don't know how things will end; she's in her 70s, and I'd love for us to get along, and enjoy Christmases and birthdays together for my DH and children's sake. I just don't know if her behaviour will allow this, which is sad, as I believe that she wants this too, just with me out of the picture.

Because when my son came, alone, he told me what had happened - in front of his son - Starlady. He was still in shock.

I am prepared to lose actually seeing him if that will cause him less distress. We are in daily contact by other means. No one can take away the love and all the memories we have, but if this woman needs to feel she's won and in control then, for the sake of my son and grandson, I'll let her. I doubt he will allow that though.

ICantEven you said there are a lot of references in the Bible to estrangement, I can think of only one, the parable of the Prodigal Son in which Jesus focuses on the pain of the son's father at his loss. What are the others?

Perhaps the story of Absalom in the Old Testament could be regarded as one of estrangement as he turned against his father King David and actually went to war with him.