Travellers

I don't think I can answer your questions vq as Travellers are a diverse group of people, just as settled people are.

I think that Travellers do not want to be in a position where pursuing their lifestyle is at the expense of others.

There are open spaces though that don't affect other people. The local council widened a main road and this cut off the entrance to a side lane...this was in the countryside. Some travellers moved onto this road to nowhere and lived there unharrassed for several months. Everyone was happy with the situation. The travellers had somewhere to live and they didn't infringe on private land or public open spaces. OK I accept that technically they were trespassing on this bit of road but as I said it was a road that led to nowhere. They kept the site tidy and when they moved they left all the rubbish neatly tied up in black bin bags so the council simply had to send in one dustcart to collect it. I think the must have been emptying their toilets at a nearby official traveller site.

Another group set up a site at a demolished factory site. Again they left the site tidy and free of human waste.

There is an unofficial site near the M62 where the travellers have been for so long they've even built a small playground for the children. The site is clean and tidy.

So it is possible for travellers and settled people to live in harmony.

But of course these were the responsible travellers who live by their traditions whilst respecting the people they move near to.

My point is that if some travellers can find land to move onto then why can't others. Both those sites are empty at the moment and would easily provide enough space for the caravans that have just moved onto the school playing field.

Also why, if travellers are so fastidious about cleanliness (which I don't doubt most are), are some happy to turn unofficial sites into unhygienic rubbish tips. Surely they would want to keep the outside areas around their caravans clean and tidy too.

I understand it's a way of life and in many ways I envy them their freedom but they can't do it at the expense of others.

I often wonder that if the "norm" were living as Travellers do (i.e. itinerant) and the minority state was being settled, how we might feel if our settled way of life was virtually outlawed.

This is the crux of the problem - the Travellers' way of life has been forced onto the wrong side of the law, which puts them in an impossible situation and on the defensive. Of course it is wrong to break into a school playing field, and the Travellers know that, but they feel forced into a corner.

There needs to be a review of the law which respects their way of life, so that both "sides" can live in peace. Nothing will change till then.

Traveller sites can of course be a problem - we tend to see Travellers as a uniform group, but they are not, and the different types sometimes don't mix well on sites.

There are lots of problems, but successive governments have turned a blind eye and left LAs to try and deal with it.

I am sorry vq that you have had this problem to add to your troubles.

I'm sorry that you had such a hard time, ohdear and I'm not aiming my criticisms at responsible travellers. It's the irresponsible ones that cause all the trouble.

Today I saw a group of about 20 caravans moving onto a nearby school's field. I'm sorry they have nowhere to go and their way of life is disappearing but that could be said for a lot of people over generations. However the fact that land is in short supply does not justify them moving onto a school playing field. I called the police as did many other people. Soon a police officer arrived and watched them move on. No attempt was made to stop them. How is this fair to the settled community? How is this fair to the school or the children at that school? As the school playground backs onto the playing field the chances are that the children will not be able to even play outside (this was the advice given to my children's school when travellers moved onto their playing field). It was obviously a school playing field...you couldn't miss the football pitch markings and goal posts so they can't say they thought it was a spare piece of land. They also had to cut the lock on the gate to get in. Surely this was criminal damage.

As I've said before if I took my caravan and parked it wherever I fancied I would soon be moved on yet some travellers seem to do as they please and play the race card when people object.

Thanks ohdear for your contributions to this thread. Mishap's comments mirror the ones I'd make about the travelling community, so thanks to you as well. Prejudice is something I feel we all need to reflect on when we're judging others - it's a challenge at times, but it's easy to attack 'minority' groups in order to make ourselves feel better and that's something we need to be mindful of.

I experienced the hostility to travellers first hand. It is very very scary to be shouted at and threatened with a beating by a shop owner when you are 12 years old becasue of who your dad is. On the other hand---being part of a tiny minority can be very empowering. We knew people hated us but we were all as close as pages in the same book. Hurt one and you hurt as all. There are far more of "you" than "us" and you have all the power. The power to close the old places, the power to make it illegal to stop, the power to have the police always believe you, the power to end a way of life that has gone on for centuries.

I ended up marrying a catholic man from the Falls road. One person from a threatened minority marrying another. As I have already said my family don't travel any more. The old places have gone and the life was too difficult. And my children just would not do it!! I think that my sibling and cousins are probably the last generation of our family to think of ourselves, even in a small way, as being travellers. And I love all the things that come with fitting in---all my school life I was different and that is no fun.

People come in all sorts. Some are good and some are bad. But for some non-travellers all travellers are bad. I don't think that all non-travellers are bad and I don't suppose that most of you think that non-travellers are bad. But for some reason alot of people, even those who have never spoken to one, think that we are all bad. Well--thanks for that. But I am very happy that some of you are willing to give us the benefit of the doubt.

Mishap--I don't know what part of the country you work in but just wanted to say thanks for giving a more balanced view on a dying way of life. I can see it all being over in a few decades. There is a much smaller pool of travellers than there used to be and although a lot of roma have come from abroad they have bought thier own traditions with them. Some are the same but like all of us from other countries there is a lot which separates us. Fair ground folk, English roma, Irish travellers and those from Eastern Europe are all different groups that have been shoved together under the heading of "traveller"--but nobody speaks traveller in just the same way nobody speaks European. (although a lot of the words have similar roots)

Vampirequeen--as I said--all the old places are going. There is no reason to give the travellers any say in that. They do not own the land and were given an alternative (what was that like, by the way). Why should they argue with that? That is why the way of life is dying and I am sure that most people will not be sorry to see it go.

Some groups leave a lot of trouble behind them when they go. Some groups don't. I don't know why some do because I have no experience with the "dirty" groups. I have had experience of the hostile group because I was part of one. But then I have been shouted at and spat at by adults when I was a child because I went into the wrong shop. I don't think all shop workers are nasty. And white Irish travellers are white Irish Travellers. That is what they are.

I guess the fairground Travellers have a place and a role, whereas a lot of other Travellers have lost that - I don't know really, just a thought.

Ah Hull Fair! Happy memories VQ. Brandy snaps and 'nugget' (nougat), walking down Walton Street, then a ride on the waltzers and the carousel with painted horses. My father had spent a year operating the steam engine for Corrigan's 'gallopers' so we always used to go to the showman's service before the fair got going so he could meet old friends.

In Hull we differentiate between gypsies and the Fairground travellers. The Fair comes every year we don't feel negative about them because not only do we see them working but they clean up after themselves. They set the fair up on a patch of ground that has a residential street along one side. In fact this street is closed for the fair and stalls etc are set up there. Every morning the travellers clean up the rubbish from the day before including any that has been thrown into the front gardens. (Townies are not averse to leaving rubbish but it is litter and not some of the stuff that gets left on unregulated campsites).

They set up their amazing mobile homes in the nearby park. Again this is kept immaculately clean and when they move off nothing is left behind.

The same week some gypsies moved onto a local play area. They terrorised the local community, burglaries shot up, children on their way to school were sworn and spat at by gipsy children in full view of the gypsy parents and when they left the site was strewn with rubbish and filth.

Please can someone tell me how one group of travellers can integrate so easily and the other seems to go out of their way to cause trouble.

Hull has a tradition of travellers coming to stay. There is still a horse fair but unfortunately the traditional place is now a built up area and the races cause terrible traffic jams on major arterial roads. Aware of this issue it was suggested that the fair and races move to a less busy area but the gipsies not only refused point blank but insisted on their 'racial' rights to hold their traditional events in the traditional places. As they're all white with Irish accents, what race are they?

When one meets aggression daily it will make one put on an aggressive front, it's natural self protection

I think that the comment about aggression and fear is very pertinent. If you are a beleaguered minority, you are more likely to put on an aggressive face to those around you.

No excuse for the lump hammer!!

My mother who was Irish was genuinely very frightened of Travellers. She was of the opinion that they gave Irish people a bad name.

She called them Tinkers because In Ireland they travelled around repairing saucepans etc.,

Personally I think a lot of their aggression may be born from fear.

Having said that DH and I were dismantling an outhouse when a Traveller asked if he could give us a hand.

He nicked our lump hammer.

I've been away so catching up with this thread. I'm another who has had work involvement with a large number of travellers. Amazing news - they're just like every other community. There are some amazing parents and some whose behaviour caused concern about their children's welfare. I agree with comments from other posters about the level of hostility travelling people experience. There aren't enough sites and areas in which ancestors could camp for a few days have disappeared. It's not an easy life, especially for the women but it's their heritage. In one area I worked, many travellers had been housed by the local council. Families would share a trailer and travel for a few weeks, before returning to their home. I can honestly say I enjoyed my contacts with the travelling community

Isn't there also the issue of "self fulfilling prophecy" to consider? If someone is constantly being labelled as stupid, lazy, bad, deceitful, etc., etc., aren't they more likely to internalise that characterisation and behave accordingly? Also, doesn't such labelling of groups of people generate hostility and lead them to turn in on themselves and have little regard for those that are not part of their group?

I realise it is natural for humans to assess risk based on their experience, and I understand why, if a person has had one or more bad experiences of a particular group, they tend to expect the worst of that group. But I also think that if you do expect the worst of people, that is what you are more likely to get - and vice versa.

Indeed. Visible minorities always get the blame; but that is not to say that some Travellers do not commit crime - I am sure that they do; but so do settled people, and every other group.

One interesting thing that has arisen from research is that if a Traveller is convicted of a crime he/she is far more likely to get a custodial sentence than a settled person convicted for the same crime.

The assumption among the general population seems to be that a larger proportion of Traveller people commit crime than in the settled population; I have no idea whether this might be true or not; but it seems a shame to condemn a whole group of people unless there is evidence that this is true.

Well said ohdear.

hi
It is really difficult to generalise about a widely different population. If I were to say that all car drivers are irresponsible and didn't care if they killed cyclists then you would --quite rightly--disagree. There is plenty of evidence to show that although there are INDEED SOME car drivers who are irresponsible and kill cyclists it is far from being all of them. But Travellers, for some reason, seem to be all the same.

I would also add, when you are used to being on the receiving end of violence and aggression it is very easy to become like that just to defend yourself.
Travellers come in sorts. Old romany travellers, like my family, were clean, honest and hard working. We STILL got banned from the village shop and pub. No evidence that we were anything but honest but we were an easy target. Much easier to blame the outsider than admit someone from your own community might have done something wrong.
I must admit, I have always been puzzled by people that insist that they are not racist but "have a problem with travellers". Have a problem with people that do things wrong (I work in the criminal justice system and have a HUGE problem with people that do things wrong) but I do try really hard not to have a problem with someone just because of where they were born, the name of their racial group or the colour of their skin.

I don't know petallus.

Yes but in what proportions?

We had a traveller site up in the woods near us some years ago. You could not walk past it because of the hostility coming from the travellers who just stood and stared. Tethered dogs barked and children threw stones.

merlot - it depends which camp you go to. "They" are not one matched set of people; some of the sites that include chalets and trailers are immaculate with beautiful gardens. I have been to many. A lot of Travellers find our housekeeping and hygiene standards pretty unacceptable.

A Traveller lass I worked with was horrified when she first joined the office - she could not believe that we all shared mugs for tea and coffee; and Traveller families are very reluctant to allow "outsiders" to use their toilets - and if they do there is a lot of scrubbing that happens afterwards.

Like the rest of us - there are good and bad.

anniebach I don't know what sentence the travellers got. The Police brought me photographs of a hoard of jewellery they had recovered but unfortunately none of it was mine. The reason they gave that they were sure the burglary had been carried out by "travellers" (the word they used) was that the process of the burglary, the exact way it had been carried out, was similar to a rash of others throughout our area that they had been able to pinpoint down to this particular group. The hoard found was taken after our burglary and the Police thought that my things had already been sold on. The travellers were charged for the other burglaries but don't know what sentence they received. The Police were helpful and kind when we were so devastated at the state our house was left in. It had been a comprehensive and professional job. The previous week Irish travellers had been round looking for gardening work. They had walked all round our house quite uninvited before I saw them in our back garden! I'm quite prepared to believe that not all travellers are as represented by the most perceptually prominent group but its hard to embrace them all as a culture after our experience.

Oh, and something else I find confusing. I watched the Grand National Gypsy Wedding programme on catch-up last night and there was a scene where four girls got out of a stretch limmo and strode on to the racecourse shouting, 'The Pikeys are here' (or words to that effect)

Last term a boy at DGSs school was excluded for referring to a traveller from a nearby site as a Pikey even though it was not done in a nasty way and the boy concerned was not upset. He now has that on his school record.

Their trailers might be immaculate but the same cannot be said for the area surrounding where they camp. They couldn't care less who has to clear that lot up.

welcome ohdear and thank you for your interesting post.

When it comes to cleaning, Travellers beat the lot! Their trailers are immaculate. I have watched girls scrubbing the window frames inside and out with a toothbrush. And they always keep the plastic covers on the seats to keep them clean. The old saying that you could eat your dinner of the floor definitely applies.