school rules gone mad

I thought the non-contact time was for them to prepare lessons and stuff like that.

The child will give himself the injection, with just the adult needed to supervise. You do not need handwashing facilities as they always use special wipes to disinfect.

Isn't it better that all children see special needs children as a part of society rather than separate from society?
When my autistic grandson started school too much noise used to make him cry. The teacher explained to the other pupils why he would cry and they learned not to upset him. It's all part of family life, and should be treated as such.
Actually it's easier in primary school now as non-contact time is built into the school timetable for all teachers so there is always an adult available for any additional problems. If there are any teachers who refuse, perhaps they should reconsider their vocation.

Minibags's secondary school has dedicated first aiders who are non-teaching staff. They deal with sick kids and calling parents if a kid needs to be taken out of school. Clearly, it can be arranged so as not to waster teachers' teaching time.

But you thought they were predictable enough to make excuses to go shopping in the afternoons, which suggests a certain amount of predictability. Being diabetic doesn't make people unreasonable, does it?

I'm sorry Jen but I agree with Katek and Riverwalk - teachers are there to teach.

They have estimated that a Primary School teacher averages a 60 hour week. Five minutes here and five minutes there will extend this. They are not nurses; noticeably even secondary schools rarely if ever have these now. Gove said he wanted to walk into a school and not be able to tell if it was state or independent. Every independent school I have had contact with had a nurse.

Cameron wanted larger pre-school classes run by one teacher until he found out the model he was lauding actually ran with one highly paid, highly qualified teacher and several teaching assistants. Teachers cannot do it all!

Of course diabetics should be able to be in school but all this school has said is that they need to take advice about how they do this. A little patience is all they are asking.

But he didn't because he was a diabetic. It's more than just a physical illness. He always used to say he would be fine and would test his blood and have something to eat when necessary. I'm sure he was not the only diabetic who tried to act as normally as possible and do what he wanted when he wanted to. In fact, I know he wasn't.

Hypos are just not that predictable.

Believe me Jen, it really wouldn't be that simple. I can guarantee if you tried doing fingerprick tests in the classroom you'd have other parents complaining because their child was finding it distressing or it wouldn't be 'appropriate' for their children, or hygienic. You'd probably also find that the school wouid want 2 members of staff involved so one could back the other in event of any mishaps. It's highly unlikely that a school would just let you whip a kid outside the door, give them a quick jab then business as usual.. H & S would dictate (rightly or wrongly) that it shouid be done in private to ensure the child's dignity, somewhere there are hand washing facilities and you would also have a log for staff members to sign which is probably located in the school office. You would probably also have to log readings and justifications for any change in dose. I really wish it could be simple but I would bet on it being bureaucratically top heavy.

Yes, good teachers have always done more than just teach, but the demands made on them nowadays are becoming more and more difficult to meet. The LA which one of my children teaches in has no 'special' schools, it's about 'normalisation' and inclusivity. All well and good, but should my child be responsible for organising the clean up of a 15 year old boy with significant behavioural difficulties who messes himself in class? Or should he be teaching his subject?

Yes, it would cost more.

Re the use of teachers' time... I think schools should employ a nurse or nanny sort of person if there are many duties such as nappy changing and injections to deal with. Otherwise, what about the teachers' duty to all the other kids in the class? And what about teachers' lunch breaks? I presume they are entitled to a lunch break like the rest of the working population.

dj, why did you have to make up reasons not to go shopping with your husband in the morning? Couldn't you just tell him his hypos were more likely to occur then so you felt it was safer for him and less stressful for you to go after the danger time? Surely he would have understood that?

Injections through clothing? Not in normal circumstances.

As for '5 minutes' - my argument is not about the time involved as such, more about the safety and efficacy of teachers undertaking such tasks.

It only takes 5 minutes for a teacher to change a child's nappy but should that become part and parcel of their daily routine - I know it's happening now, but is it acceptable?

Teachers have always been more than just teachers.

Katek, you are talking about 5 minutes, not leaving them for a whole lesson. Finger pricking can be done in the classroom or just outside the door. Injections can be given through clothing.

It would be nice if teachers were just there to teach, River. That hasn't been true for a long time.

Very true, Riverwalk.

Agree, GT. As stated earlier, it was only when pens came in and different types of insulin mix were used that the control allowed for three or four injections a day. From the fifties, kids only used to have injections twice a day, before and after school. Hypos necessitating hospital and ambulances were much more common then.

But why should teachers be expected to perform these 'easy' and 'not difficult' tasks?

They are there to teach.

I agree it's not difficult GT in terms of prepping the insulin, but from school's side of things if a member of staff -be it teaching staff or admin - is involved then who is covering for them? They can't be doing two things so someone else has to be timetabled to cover their class/work for perhaps 20 mins. You cannot leave a class unsupervised and if admin can't get cover they're playing catchup all day. Not always easy to arrange cover especially in smaller schools. It's this type of fine detail that needs to be worked out. As I say, get him into school with family support and then work out the plan.

But it's not difficult - it's only about the dose related to the carbs they will be having and it's easy to learn how to do that if you're the trained member of staff. The child will be involved in this calculation as part of moving towards self management. The correct dose is then 'dialled' on the pen . It must have been hard in the past when syringes had to be used.

i can understand your concerns Jen, it must have been very difficult for you to live with your husband's condition. In emergency situations of course the school has to be aware and deal with them effectively. It could be anything from a broken leg to epilepsy, concussion, hypo/hyper attack or getting hit in the face with a hockey ball. Routine medication is a different issue and there is no reason for this little boy to miss school until the school itself sorts out its policies/procedures. The family could perhaps organise for one of them to go in at lunchtime or, if they're working, perhaps a family friend/grandparent could be asked to come in. There's no point in getting aereated about what the school is/isn't doing currently-it still leaves the problem. Address the immediate issue which is to keep this little lad in education. and then work with the school to put appropriate measures in place once the pressure is off both parties.

Riverwalk-I asked DGD yesterday if they have any diabetics in her school and she said yes, one boy. I then asked her what he did about injections and she said he had to go out 20 mins before lunch and do 'maths' after he'd pricked his finger so they could get his dinner 'right'. As you say, it's sometimes not as simple as just using a preloaded pen injector.

I don't think for one minute it is intended that teachers do this. I think this s
being bigged up out if all proportion. Thousands of children with diabetes go to mainstream school every day- as they do with asthma and epilepsy and schools manage . It's probably harder to have children with autism or AHD or just children who are over tired because they are allowed to stay up late . My dgs (4) has a classmate with T1 - everyone just gets on with it

As a nurse, and former paediatric nurse, I think it's a big imposition on a teacher to be expected to give daily medications, particularly insulin. Before you inject you need to check what the blood sugar level is and sometimes vary the dose depending on the reading.

It's a different situation altogether from being trained to use an Epipen which is only needed in a rare emergency.

But what is that in the case of a diabetic child going to school?
These days, diabetics are told to get exercise. Exercise uses up blood sugar. An 8 year old child does not always understand how he feels. There is a fine line between being okay and going hypo.
I used to dread going shopping with my husband in the morning because if he was going to have a hypo, it would be in the morning, so I used to make up all sort of reasons to stay at home in the morning, and go shopping in the afternoon when the kids were little.

Personal responsibility Jen.

My kids used to have to have epipens in secondary school. It was all done with the minimum of fuss.
I dont see what is so difficult in this case.
Perhaps it is because it is now an academy, so they have not got systems in place?

So what's the solution, KateK? Not to allow diabetic children to go to school?