This will cause a hoo ha !

So if the result of the cuff is neutral -whatever that means- what is the point of it? And far from shrieking, I am crystal clear in my argument that slapping a child is wrong, however you wish to describe it. Why is it necessary when so many of us manage to parent our children successfully without resorting to even minimum violence?

And on that note, thank you all for the discussion. It has clarified my thinking on the subject.

I don't call a corrective cuff violence. As I said, what I'm talking about is not about hurting the child. We're not talking about flogging.

Of course there hasn't been a study showing that an occasional smack improved a child's behaviour. Such a study would be impossible to design.

The point is that occasional physical correction, such as the lion cuffs I mentioned earlier, don't do any harm, not that they do any good. In other words, the result is neutral. It's not bad, nor is it good. It's harmless but, on occasion, effective for the particular moment concerned.

And, once again, I'm not advocating it, just saying good grief, calm down, to those who are shrieking as if it was abuse.

It is not a comparison we are talking about bags it is principles. It is wrong in principle to use violence. Utterly unnecessary. If you could show me a study that clearly showed smacking children improved behaviour that I would consider the argument. In fact I think you will be hard pushed to do so because I know for sure that it has been proved the complete opposite. I can't remember the studies but undoubtedly anyone of our grans who worked ins social work will be aware these studies.

Is it really comparing like with like to ask if someone would smack/slap a friend who was being naughty? To begin with, it's a different kind of relationship and you can walk away (which you can't from a child in your care) if they really annoy you and not be friends with them, and secondly, an adult friend is not a child. A child is a different species (so to speak) from an adult; there is an awful lot of stuff that a child doesn't know about or understand when it comes to what is acceptable behaviour, and some of a child's antics are precisely to find those things out.

No, I'm still not advocating smacking children, just pointing out the weakness of the argument that asks about smacking adults.

And I still don't think a smack is always and automatically wrong where one's own children are concerned. A non-damaging clout (it isn't about hurting the child) once in a blue moon can say much more clearly than a thousand words of yabbering on being ineffective.

A friend once pushed me over hard enough on a mountain that I rolled a bit and could have hurt myself. Once I understood the reason (to prevent worse hurt) I didn't mind a bit. Actually, I didn't mind a bit at any time, because I knew she wouldn't have done it except for a good reason. I think kids can understand that concept too as regards a clout (I prefer that word to hit) that obviously isn't meant to hurt them, only to bring them up short.

I love the 'gentle smacks' the 'small smacks' and the 'taps'
Would any of you smack your best friend or neighbour if they did something you didn't like
I was never smacked, I didn't smack my children, and none of them have smacked their children...... No angels thats for sure but why would a big adult smack a small child
As for the plug, road traffic danger etc why smack why not pull them away after all it's about educating them to danger not punishing them ....if a small child pokes an electric plug it's curiosity not understand the harm it will caused, so why not pull them away and explain the danger the fact that it may burn their hand and hurt them badly by smacking them, they will have no idea why they are being punished for exploring and for learning. well that's how I see it anyway

If your child is just about to poke a fork into an electrical socket, do you say,if you do that I will take your favourite toy away, or do you leap across the room and rap the knuckles so that the fork is dropped?

widgeon why not just get covers for sockets?

Actually the child could in all probability poke the fork in and come to no harm. In fact, they could come to more harm if socket covers are used! www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5039454/Electrical-socket-safety-covers-are-absurd-and-dangerous-say-engineers.html

It is not unusual for children to behave better with their grandparents and for anyone other than their own parents - I am sure our own children were just the same! I do not think we should necessarily be patting ourselves on the back for that and assuming superior child management skills - it is just how things are.

I sometimes find the new way of parenting frustrating to watch because I am concerned that my DC are getting exhausted. But I do also admire their determination never to smack and to treat their children with respect. I also feel exhausted watching them!

I was once in charge of a toddler in a screaming tantrum as her mother left the house, It looked as if she would throw herself down the stairs so I smacked her legs and she sank to the floor and I was able to grab her and drag her into the bedroom.
I told DD all about it and she admitted giving a few taps her self but only with that child. DGD ignored anything like the naughty step or waiting at the kerb.

She grew out of it of course and now her favourite sport is Judo.And she loves the discipline of this sport.

My DD quite sadly has lamented that her boys behave much better when they are with DH and I than they do at home. I don't have an answer for her beyond consistency consistency consistency -and no means no! The boys don't seem to resent it at all.

Never hit my pets either.

I hope tnatis what I was trying to get across. I've never hit my C. They have never hit my GC Hitting is an awful thing to do. A tap to prevent somethind terrible happening is different thing altogether

Why do they do this sticking a wire in a live socket!
DS1 did it at my parent's house, aged about 3. He even went to the trouble of straightening out the spiral hinge from a notebook then pushing it onto the element of an electric fire. Everything fused.
I can't remember how we re-acted, but he was frightened enough.
As for smacking, I think it has its place, but a small one.

widgeon why not just get covers for sockets? and locks for freezer? Better than hitting a baby.

So we start slapping at less than a year?????!!!!!!!! widgeon That as far as I am concerned amounts to abuse.

How did my children or my daughters children survive I ask myself?

thank god for Annsixty.
Had 5 children and only administered 2 slaps which had absolutely the required effect. Elder daughter couldn't walk but had strong arms and could balance well She scaled the sofa and then got on top of the bookcase behind it to retrieve my knitting needle ( hidden at the highest spot in the house).... scaled down and was just about to stick it in a socket when I saw her and slapped her She shrieked in amazement but never did it again Incidentally, she had previously managed to retrieve an apple core which she attempted to shove in same socket I hadn't caught her but witnessed the bits of mangled apple on the floor. To explain the niceties of electricity to a child of less than 1yo is not possible.
Case 2
Another child desired frozen goodies from chest freezer so dragged a bathroom stool into place to access it. Of course she denied it although her mouth was covered in chocolate. She got a swift tap too to foresall her falling in a chest freezer and all the inherent possibilities. last infringement there too

In my eyes they are getting it wrong Luckygirl BUT having explained my rationale and demonstrated the success we have with it , at the end of the day they are adults . If they choose to get stressed by bad behaviour in their own homes there's nothing I can do about that.

I chuckle because I KNOW how it will go left to them and only one of us is getting stressed and it's not me. There are no raised voices from Grampy and I because generally our grandchildren behave well in our home and when out with us.

So I don't feel sad. Not everyone parents the same whether that's a good or bad thing.

I don't chuckle when a parent is getting the discipline of my DGC wrong - I feel a bit sad.

I agree with annsixty , we reserve smacks for life threatening situations, running in the road , sticking that darn fork in the socket!!

In the 9 years we've had grandchildren we've used it once ..... For a running away in a car park, and one stern 'no' from Grampy for felt pen drawing on the table. Both were our eldest DGD now aged 9.

We don't smack, not because I don't believe in it - in the right place a small smack on the hand or on a well padded bottom might be necessary- but because we are consistent with our house rules.

There aren't many, they never change and we never threaten. The children 9,6,4 and 2 all know them . I watch their parents say things like ' if you do that again' for the 53rd time and I chuckle . The reason it's being said for the 53rd time is because they aren't consistent . They just want the path of least resistance. And I get that. It's exhausting raising children who constantly push the boundaries.

In our house, it's our rules. I gave up waiting for my DDs and SILs to discipline their children so now if a child misbehaves there's no threats , it's off to the naughty step where they stay till I fetch them ( unlike in their own home where the little ones make the rules ).

My DDs know how it works and at any time they could step in and do the necessary but that would mean getting up, stopping chatting or putting the phone down.

Nonsense you don't rap her knuckles you simply pull her arm away, with a firm No! Then a simple and short explanation for your reaction. How is that less effective than a slap?

Hmm, I don't agree that a five year old doesn't have the capacity, as you put it, granarchist, to understand that the punishment for something they have just done will happen in the future. Minibags understood that concept perfectly when she was less than five years old when it was used to 'help her remember' not to draw on walls. She said she "forgot" that I'd been patiently telling her not to draw on walls and furniture ever since she first picked up a pen or crayon and did so at about eighteen months old. I had to think of something that would make her remember, something effective. I did so. It was depriving her of a much longed for treat that she expected but which was still in the future.

If your child is just about to poke a fork into an electrical socket, do you say,if you do that I will take your favourite toy away, or do you leap across the room and rap the knuckles so that the fork is dropped?

What adult transgressions in your view will be prevented in future by a slap. None! So why on earth are the rules different for tiny children. When do you start slapping? 3 months? 1 year? 2 years? And when does it stop? Do you slap teenagers?

It is an absolutely ridiculous argument.

my house my rules. Works with GC and a very annoying friend whose dog comes to stay a lot. His dog is not allowed on laps at home but he is in my house! The dog knows perfectly well where the parameters lie. Friend has surrendered and we have peace in my house. I also agree that punishment/sanctions whatever you want to call them should be enforced immediately after the transgression. Anything else is torture. How can you get a 5 yr old to understand that he/she wont be going to a party/swimming whatever later in the week for something they did 5 seconds ago? They do not have the mental capacity to associate the 'crime' with the 'punishment'. That is why sometimes (rarely in my experience) a sharp tap is way more effective than a long discussion. If a child pulls away from you when crossing the road, no amount of "you might get run over" will get through to them - how can they possibly know what you mean? I just think you have to have house rules and you have to stick to them thru thick and thin. tedious tho it may be.

..some one gas pointed out that smacking your child is not illegal. I think if you were beating your child it would be !

As is clearly explained in the text I posted, quoted from www.lawandparents.co.uk