Gay Pride ad a new 'equality gap'?

I may be willing to wear suffragettes colour if asked to, but not if told to

Eglantine, how old were these women ? to be comitted in the sixties and released in the seventies ? Under forty? Under thirty?

So all of these 10 volunteers knew Ketton-Cremer who died 48 years ago? I very much doubt that.
As I have already said anyone is free to refuse to wear anything and the NT is free to choose who will meet the public in their properties.
Why shouldn't you educate people? Surely part of telling the history of someone or somewhere is to educate?
As I said before next year celebrates 100 years of women getting the vote would you be willing to wear suffragette colours?

Well said NfkD

There is far more to this man's life and his public service than his private life which he preferred to keep private for whatever reason. The NT may own his house now but they do not own his private life.

Can't see much 'homophobia' on this thread in fact, only a view that people should not be forced into doing something they would prefer not to because it is not actually in the remit of the organisation for which they volunteer and as a consequence they are hidden from public view.

Trisher the volunteers weren't asked to wear the badge, they were told. If they disagreed, mainly because they objected to being told to wear it (it being the thin end of a wedge), or because they knew Ketton-Cremer to be a private man who would have objected strongly to his sexuality (whether straight or gay) being openly discussed by strangers, they would be branded as homophobes. This has happened, they have been by some and it's very hurtful.

I would refuse to wear any badge supporting anything which wasn't about the National Trust. I volunteer for the National Trust and am proud to do so and support them. I love where I work and it's history. I am also very careful not to foist my opinions and views on our visitors and not to offend. It's something we've be trained to do. Some religions teach that homosexuality is wrong. Some of our visitors follow those religions. It's not for me to 're-educate' them.

Ketton-Cremer was probably gay and if it came up in discussion with a visitor that would be the time to talk about the problems and influence it may have had on his life, but many visitors aren't interested or consider it irrelevant and prefer to talk about the hall's more distant history or the books or the paintings. There's far more to Felbrigg than the sexuality of its last owner.

We are not talking about gay people receiving therapy, or unmarried mothers in the past being in institutions or anything else other than staff who work ( probably volunteers) for the NT told that they must wear gay pride lanyards and badges......it is only that fact that is important here, and seems to be being firgotten in the rush by some posters to condemn others as 'homophobic'. Which is nonsense.

When mental institutions were closed in the 70s and 80s a large number of women were discovered who had been committed because they were unmarried mothers. The much respected psychologist John Bowlby had given evidence as to the "unstable" character of the unmarried mother and this had been accepted by the authorities. Even more common was the family practice of placing relatives who were pregnant in "nursing homes" from which their babies were adopted. This is well documented Annie f you would care to research it just a little. But then you would have to say you were mistaken.

A close friend of ny younger daughter , her sister and their mother shared a house with the deputy head . They rented a two bed roomed house, the girls in one room the women in the other. When they bought a three bedroomed house the first time my daughter stayed overnight she was thought her friend and the sister were spoilt, seems x and x had a bedroom each but mrs x and Miss deputy head still had to share a room , ?

Eglantine, no, unmarried mothers were not locked in mental hospitals in the sixties.

Well it says a lot about attitudes and it explains why gay people need Gay Pride marches if people in spite of numerous posts, stories, and evidence still refuse to recognise how badly gay people were treated and how much of a stigma it was. In fact to me it proves the need to have the NT tell the stories and ask people to wear the badge because there is still such a lot of ignorance and prejudice out there.

Yes, djen I am very very old.
Well, not that old as my youngest DC is the same age as your DGD apparently

I know you weren't sleepwalking
I was at college.
I remember mentioning in passing about Dusty Springfield being lesbian (gay was not a term then) and my DM had not heard of such a thing.
However, we were perfectly aware at school as more than two of our teachers were presumably in same-sex relationships ('best friends' as it was called). That would have been in the late 50s.
However, being female and 'friends' it was perfectly acceptable.

So - was it just men who were persecuted or were women too?

If you won't accept what people who were placed in mental institution for being gay tell us about their experiences there's nothing more to be said really. Do you accept people were put in institutions for having illegitimate babies or are they lying too. Or perhaps you think I made up the attack on my brother. I expect he just tripped over!

If gays were in. Mental institutions in the sixties it was probably they were suffering from anxiety /depression. Shock therapy was the norm then, i was in a mental hospital in 1971, one chap had it because he had suffered badly as a prisoner of war, a mum of an austistic child was depressed and exhausted - shock therapy , I had severe post natal depression, I refused to sign for shock treatment, they then told me they would treat me for an eating disorder, it was years later I learned insulin injections were used as shock therapy . So I do not accept people were placed in mental hospitals because they were guy, possibly from the mental stress they were under.

Are you older than I think you are, Jalima?
I wasn't sleepwalking in the early 60s, I was at school.

But, as djen pointed out, it was considered sufficient to send gay people to mental institutions for therapy in those days

Quite plain what Ana meant.

Sorry I seem to have missed something you posted earlier DJ. I haven't read the whole thread.

Ana were discussing how gays were treated in the 60sand you posted
"Lots of people had shock therapy treatment in the 60s and possibly beyond for all manner of mental and emotional ailments."
As gays had shock treatment I assumed you were regarding that as a mental ailment.If you didn't mean it as such it was very misleading.

You forgot about having to pee and defecate on their own beds, Tricia.
It's strange how people have managed to avoid reading those descriptions put on here, and think that being put under was a good thing.
The whole point about gay people being given the therapy was to make them feel disgusted about their own sexuality.

I don't think Ana said that she thought it was did she?

It was djen who pointed out
Being gay was unacceptable in its time, as was sending people to mental institutions because they were gay, and giving them aversion therapy.
which we all know anyway unless we were sleepwalking and many of us thought that this was unacceptable even then.

I wasn't implying that it was trisher - sorry, hadn't checked the original post about ECT, I was just posting my own memories of the practice.

"Good posts Monica and TerriBull" - I agree.
And to add to DJ's mention of shock therapy for OCD - around the same time aversion therapy was used to 'cure' homosexuals. Not shock therapy, but a medication that was injected to make the person vomit when shown photos of people of their own sex. I don't think it was very successful.

Ana Being gay is not a mental illness

Regarding being proud of a gay family member. I think it is a big step to come out. I think society still expects that people will grow up, have a partner and have children, by saying you are gay you set yourself away from this and have to find your own path and this strength deserves acknowledgement. It is a path still being forged and sometimes the advance guard are a bit extreme. But if it is a choice between seeing men scantily clad or having people hidden and persecuted I'll put up with the men. After all there are half naked girls on the pages of many newspapers.

I have only picked up on what people have said that I thought needed explaining. That is why I brought up the subject of sex. I didn't realise until I posted it that a few others had addressed it. Sorry for making a comment but I thought that is what these forums are for.

Lots of people had shock therapy treatment in the 60s and possibly beyond for all manner of mental and emotional ailments.

My friend's mother was hospitalised for about 6 months with depression and was given it - she was strapped to the bed (thankfully, she was put under before the actual treatment) and had several sessions. I don't know whether it had any effect, but there were women in the same ward being treated for schizophrenia and 'general malaise' with ECT.