To think women are more than just wives, mothers and grandmothers.

DS is 'nurturing' - some people are, some are not.

I don't feel denigrated because I didn't marry. I don't feel denigrated that I haven't done half the stuff in the poem. I didn't do them because I didn't want to.

Surely the point is that a woman can be whatever she wants to be? A woman just -- IS!

There is a song called Everything Possible which ends:-
"And the only measure of your words and your deeds
will be the love you leave behind when you're done."
I think it sums up my philosophy

www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUBc6-keVIQ

I think it denigrates women if we assign to them roles and attitudes that they may not have. Can you imagine anyone expecting a boy to be 'nurturing'? If we limit women's life choices by setting narrow expectations and ambitions for them we are damaging them. I wonder what would happen if that poem was posted on MN?

A woman can be all those things - and more besides.

There probably has never been a poem written that could give justice to every single woman, her hopes, her fears, her triumphs etc. Everyone is different. It was just a snapshot into some women's path. I don't see how that denigrates any other women, whose paths are different, or whose thought processes are far removed. It struck a chord with me, even though my life is nothing like the one written about. I saw it more as a celebration of women's nurturing role. Not that I'm even particularly nurturing by nature.

lemongrove so how will designating women as wives, mothers and grandmothers help them and their sadness?

If childlessness is a lifestyle choice, then fair enough.For many women though, it is a great sadness for them not to be able to have children, and I don’t think this has been mentioned.

trisher if you genuinely didn’t know about the sad death of MawBroon’s DH then you do now.A little more compassion wouldn't go amiss.

I chose not to have children, so I don't have any grandchildren...........

My sister could have written your post WilmaKnickersfit

Granny 23. I am glad that you will be able to take part in your Christmas Shop. That will do more for you than any pampering. Enjoy!

So whose life is it supposed to reflect? Some idealised concept of 'woman"? Well sorry but I totally reject that. Much as a I reject the concept that women are wives, mothers and grandmothers and nothing else. If we have to look at the 7 ages I'd first of all say that Shakespeare has said it all for the first 2 and the last stage. The mewling and puking babe, the reluctant school child and the sans everything are not gender based they are universal.
Granny23 I'm sorry you think I attacked anyone. I would point out that I responded to a very critical post and did so in the same tone in which it was written.

Nothing like my life Eglantine

Well, now I've read the poem somewhat belatedly my first reaction was that it didn't fit my life and would need a rewrite right from the beginning!
Obviously it was Maws reflection on her own life and in spite of her recent bereavement a very good one it sounds too.

I still think the OPs question was a valid one though.
It may have inflicted pain to Maw but so can an assumption that husband, children and grandchildren are what constitutes a woman's life.

My life has been and will continue to be a life worth living even though hasn't followed those seven ages so perhaps to claim her own life as a woman's life was a bit presumptuous.

I chose not to have children, so I don't have any grandchildren. I could count on one hand the number of times I have felt broody and then it was only for a few moments. This choice has consequences because there will be no children or grandchildren to support me in my old age, but I've been on here long enough to know there is no guarantee that families will be part of the lives of the elderly.

No regrets.

I felt the poem was obviously a genuine and touching expression of the writer's feelings, but I also felt uneasy about the values that it appeared to me to be espousing.

trisher did not post on the poem thread but started a separate thread in order to express her opinion with regard to the role of women. What she said was not a criticism of a person but questioned the underlying theme of the poem. I'm not sure why she should be criticised for expressing an opinion, especially as she refrained from making her comments on the poem thread.

As I said before, my family is extremely important to me but I certainly don't think that a female's primary role in life should be portrayed as that of giving birth and nurturing children to adulthood. What, for instance, has happened to the father in this scenario - surely his role deserves a mention? Anyway, I feel there are many ways in which women can lead meaningful and valuable lives aside from procreating. To imply otherwise is surely to devalue those women who have chosen not to, or who cannot, have children.

My children and grandchildren are extremely precious to me, but they know me as a strong woman, a courageous woman, a hard working woman, an educated woman, a career woman, a feminist, a champion of many causes and someone who knew adversity and hard times but kept going. I was a wife too, and that is probably the part of my life that wasn't very satisfactory or happy.

I think I was the only woman amongst my friends who questioned the 'joys' of motherhood when I had my first child.

I suspect many women of our generation haven't had it easy. Yes, we are proud parents and grandparents but we are much, much more and some of the stories we could tell might make younger generations think. We were trailblazers and pioneers in many respects, going where women before us hadn't been in terms of life experiences. We may be seen as harmless 'old dears' now but I have some personal tales that still make me smile and blush in equal measure. My youth was colourful. (I'd never dare tell the children - they'd see their mother in a whole new light!)

In my case, I did lots (am still trying to do lots!) but my children enhanced a fairly rich life (rich in terms of experiences and not wealth, unfortunately!)

I've come back to this thread to apologise for my post having had a depressing effect and am quite shocked to see that it has descended into personal attack on a recently bereaved regular poster. Shame on you OP

Anyway, Monday was a bad day for me, attended the funeral of yet another old friend and neighbour, with only a handful of fellow mourners, came home to a TV not working and flood on kitchen floor (DH fiddling with controls again) but all sorted now and back to normal.

In reply to PensionPat - It makes me so happy to hear that your Christmas Shop is raring to go again this year. Our Christmas shop, now in its 4th year was in jeopardy with 1 DD working away, the other ill, and me with very limited time and energy, it appeared that none of the usual volunteers, while more than happy to collect donations and staff the shop. would take on the overall responsibility. We have been fortunate that 2 Community Organisations, with paid staff + volunteers have agreed to host the shop this year in their shared premises. So the shop will continue and guess how I will be 'pampering myself' on Day Care Wednesdays? Correct - I'll be doing a shift in the shop each week till Christmas. This will make me a very happy Santa's Little Helper indeed.

Some of our 'Babies' are not human ones, but rather ideas and projects that we have instigated, that have been expanded, taken wings and flown and had positive effects for many. It can be painful when such things grow on and change out with our personal control, but as with our human children, trainees, pupils, followers, whatever, we can only take a quiet pride in having laid the foundations which allowed them to develop in their own way.

There was nothing confrontational about this thread. Indeed if I had wanted to be confontational I could have posted on the poem. I'm afraid I don't follow the personal life of all the posters on GN and indeed avoid threads with too many personal posts. There was nothing on the poem thread to indicate any of the things you have said Ian64. I am sorry MawBroon has lost her husband but if she chooses to post very dismissive things I think I have a right to reply

The woman you say you have no idea why she may be feeling down, as everyone else seems to have realised was writing in reflection of the meaning of her (and many of our) lives on the death of her husband. Maw has posted a number of times about Paw's declining health and posted to share the news of his death with Gransnet members.
I feel you are splitting hairs here trisher and in a very confrontational manner.

I can't recall ever posting anything so critical to anyone on gransnet before. Debating interesting subjects, in which the role of women sits high on my list, can become polarised because the personal is political. I had a dreadful first marriage, divorced becoming a single parent with a child. Remarried some time later, had more children and feel so fortunate to have experienced the positives that marriage can bring. That doesn't mean I don't care about my single/divorced/childless loved ones. Debates like this surely have more to offer than 'who wins'.

It wasn't really to do with the poem more perhaps to do with my reaction to it. I didn't really want it to be about the poem but about the ideas behind it which I found narrow and restrictive.
I think it is always interesting to look at the role of women

I had no idea it was to do with a poem or another thread, but I did think it was an interesting idea to discuss.

I have no illusions - and I make no pretensions to be one if Gray’s “mute inglorious Miltons” btut literary criticism is one thing, starting a whole thread to pick holes, another. Oh and while as a mum and gran I would not wish to make personal remarks, it is accelerated (as one teacher to another)

MawBroon. In my opinion, when a person writes from the heart, it doesn't need analysis.