To think women are more than just wives, mothers and grandmothers.

So what you are arguing aginst is my criticism of your poem, not as you originally claimed my post. I was polite enough not to openly criticise anything you have written but the concept behind it. If you feel this is rubbishing your sentiments I am sorry you feel that way. However the discussion on this thread has been mostly accelarated by you.
I do think if you want to publish poetry even if only on this forum you should be prepared to accept criticism.

I can't mention another thread because it isn't allowed but being a woman is about more than marrying and having children I think. If you find something about that I haven't said anything

“A nod is as good as a wink to a blind man.”

Without this snide reference I might have felt able to agree with much of what you and others are saying, indeed just as one side of the coin is that a man is more than his career we now have the obverse applying to women
Just what however, other than pats on the back, did you hope to achieve by rubbishing my sincere sentiments?

Really strange as it may seem I do have other things to do and don't monitor the lives of anyone on GN. Sorry if I should but I don't.

MawBroon I have no idea why you are 'down'.
really?

I started a thread MawBroonwhich you chose to post on. I didn't openly criticise anything. I simply stated something I believe to be true. No criticism of any 'sentiments'.

Actually YOU started the debate prompted it seemed to be saying by a reflective poem I wrote on Paw’s recent death (which everybody else seems to have been aware of)
Not crying “Poor me” just putting the record straight before more opinion was whipped up as a very clear criticism which was expressed of my sentiments.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-42078457
Labour MP Angela Rayner has just become a grandmother at 37 and attributes her success in life to becoming a mother at 16.

Surely everyone knows that women aren't baby making machines? It was a lovely poem - if it doesn't float your boat then don't read it.

Fortunately I have never tried to ”emuate” (sic) Shakespeare but hey, when a person is down, good time to go for the jugular?

As for putting words into people's mouths. Nowhere have I said that being a mother isn't important, or that it doesn't matter. I have simply said that it isn't ALL women are. If you choose to think that is devaluing motherhood that is just your opinion. Even if we look at it on a time basis, raising children takes perhaps 20-30years of someone's life. Are we then to assume the rest is wasted or of less importance?
Having accused me of creating a Straw Man Argument and now of adolescent debate perhaps you should look more carefully at my original post and read what I actually said.
As for the Seven ages of Woman- presumably you regard childless woman as having less than the rest of us because there are 2 stages they certainly don't achieve.
It's never a good idea to try to emuate Shakespeare.

Trisherread my words.

Nowhere have I said that procreation is ALL that matters.
Art, literature, philosophy music- yes our lives would be infinitely poorer but without the continuation of the species (to take the argument to its logical conclusion) that would cease to exist too.
The fact that many members have expressed agreement with you does not validate the assumption that I was arguing the opposite. The Straw Man fallacy is used all too readily in oratory to whip up opposition to imaginary ills. Take a lesson from history.
You cannot extrapolate from what I say to put words in my mouth and say that I think that anyone who has not had children has had a wasted life.
Adolescent high school debates used to sometimes to go down that road and we would be pulled up short.

Oh and if I say something, I mean it.

MawBroon Do you really think
*What can be more important to the continuance of human life on Earth and to society than the birth of each successive generation and the responsible upbringing of our citizens?
If all that mattered was our professional lives then we would surely be happy to be euthanased instead of a leaving do (and think what THAT would save the country’s finances !)*
The ultimate application of this idea is that anyone who hasn't produced children has a wasted life. Just think of the number of people this would include, and the works of art and science that apparently mean nothing unless you have bred.
For a Straw Man Fallacy it has produced a great many comments so it obviouslty rings a bell with some women. Perhaps as has always been the case you have chosen not to listen to those voices, but to simply dismiss them.

Granny 23. I would like to thank you for inspiring me to emulate your Christmas project. It has become a very large part of my life and given me the opportunity to contribute to my community. My family are very proud of me and in this second year they are helping in various ways, patricularly my DH. My DGS will be helping on the stall. I love the way it has become a family project and i am having lots of fun
None of this would have happened without the help and advice from Granny 23. So you are far more than a carer! Thank you. ???

Well I think OP hinted at it (Monday 19.21) so I thought I might risk it.
As I see it the premise of this thread is that OP needs to defend herself from being defined as just a mother etc

In Logic it is called the Straw man Fallacy when, in debate or argument, you create the illusion of refuting an argument which has not actually been presented. Sometimes also referred to as an Aunt Sally after the pub game!

Good Morning Maw - I'm never sure if it's allowed to mention another thread but I'm glad you did.

Holly cat, I think sounds as if you do quite a lot now. Cooking, cleaning and gardening is a lot of work and I am glad you enjoy it.
I do think women are supposed to do all that domestic work automatically and enjoy it because it's what we do. And in a way that's true, I get a lot of satisfaction from that role. But I do remember when I worked for 5 hours on a Sunday afternoon how wonderful it was to get a pay cheque! Being a low paid worker is better than being an unpaid slave. Even now I think perhaps I could get a little job doing something to help pay for my grand childrens music lessons.

Not sure if you meant to make me laugh Maw but you did. Especially the bit about being euthanised at the leaving do.
I had no idea this thread came off the back of another. I took it as just a pondering on life, as you do.
I will go and find the poem.

trisher I was a teacher and I loved every minute of it but it is nothing to how I feel about being a wife, mother and grandmother, my family is my life. As my daughter told someone who said she must be very proud of her science career she said 'it's what I do, not who I am'.

Ode not od, but perhaps it was (odd)!

This is a strange OP arguing against something nobody has, to my knowledge postulated.
It’s like saying AIBU to say that black is not white, it is black.
If OP was prompted in her argument by my humble od, let me say that was not what it was about, as perhaps more careful reading might reveal, but also prompted by Shakespeare's Seven Ages of Man whose theme is the cycle or circle of life. Birth, childhood, lover, soldier, justice, “senior citizen”and at the end of his life, facing death
I felt there was room for a female take on this premise, after all, not only boys and young men go “unwillingly to school”or become “young lovers”
My starting point was that there are certain stages in a woman’s life, certain milestones as it were and most of us on GM have experienced those. At this juncture in my life I am perhaps in more contemplative mood than usual.
I too had a successful career as a secondary teacher and HoD but when I retired I did not for a moment kid myself that that was my sole raison d’être. Or indeed that I was not ENTIRELY replaceable and replaced.
But you only have one mum.
What can be more important to the continuance of human life on Earth and to society than the birth of each successive generation and the responsible upbringing of our citizens?
If all that mattered was our professional lives then we would surely be happy to be euthanased instead of a leaving do (and think what THAT would save the country’s finances !)
Life on Earth is dependent on procreation , our legacy might be a painting or work of literature but what lives on is the genes.
Apologies of course if this is way off the mark of what OP intended, but arguments and empty rooms spring to mind.

At the end of the day you will be remembered mainly by the family you leave behind. I had a good career in the City, I was up early, home late, juggling children (making them self sufficient do they could pretty much look after themselves after school and during school holidays). I wondered what on earth I would do when I retired and every day was a Saturday. Truth is I actually don't do a great deal. My husband became disabled and relies on me quite a lot now. I seem to spend my time on cooking, cleaning, gardening (all my hobbies). But that was then and this is now. Looking back just how important was that job? It took us on wonderful holidays, the children saw much of the world, so that was a good thing. We had nice things but were time poor, so that wasn't so good. I'm conflicted. The girls grew up and seem to quite like me, so that's a good thing. I'd like to think they'd remember all the good times together, not those when I couldn't be there, so I DO want to be remembered as a wife and mother. Nobody's last words should be "I should have spent more time in the office"!

You're right, there is no 'just' about it kitty - arguably the most important job in the world.

I went to university at sixteen and had a five year first career, then six years as a full-time Mum, then ten years in a second career before retraining in my forties for the career I always really wanted and continued into my seventies.

I hope I was of some use in these roles, but why should we have to ever say that our work was more or less important than our roles as Mums and Grannies? (or for that matter as wives, sisters, friends?)

I see what you mean but when all's said and done your family are more important than any job, no matter how fulfulling.
I smile politely when I've asked someone about how they are and they go into great detail what their children or GC have done. I want to ask, "but what about you?" I don't push it though as I realise that they don't actually have anything else going on in their lives but don't like to admit it. MIL was like this, she had no interests outside the home and thought that people with hobbies were peculiar. Sad really and very limiting.