carers not doing their job

As others have said carers aren't well paid and some do an outstanding job. Others "Attend", do very little work and care even less.

As for the folks in the wheelchairs, all I can say is poor souls. If that's the level of care they are receiving when their carers are being observed...

WHAT sort of disregard/neglect are they enduring in private??? That's what worries/angers me.

Re: the lady in the knitting group? If her carer doesn't care then her time in the group will have even more value for her. Not only will she have some social interaction but she may actually get some care.

Oh and some Kindness.

There is often a real lack of Kindness in caring. And for a lonely, dependant soul I'm sure a little kindness can go along way.

I know very well what should happen with regard to budgets and all that freedom of choice stuff but, in my considerable experience, talk is one thing but what actually happens at the sharp end is something else altogether!! I'm not saying that's a good thing. The intentions are great but how they filter down to massively reduced local authority budgets and extremely low paid staff is another.

Surely the carer should be helping the person in wheelchair to knit. Tell them to come next to person to help them.

Overthehill
Well for sure you do see life.
I am not one for groups having in the past experienced as a newcomer being treated like a child.ie don't sit there that is Mrs so and so's chair. Even if Mrs so and so hasn't turned up. Can't be doing with that, and, by the grace of the almighty I am not yet in need of a carer. I was brought up by a 'oh stop complaining, get on with it ' mother and this has left me with a don't stop until you drop attitude.
I have great admiration for carers be they family or those whose job it is and in the final year of DH life now realise I could not have coped without their help. I may have been one of the fortunate and had a great team but theirs can in many cases be a thankless job and from what I have been told working in conditions you would not put an animal
There will always be those who give the rest a bad name
and in view of the peanuts paid unless these carers are given a decent wage it will continue.

Yes indeed. Also, aren't there are some local bye-laws in some areas about food and drink not being allowed on buses?

I think the word 'carer' is misused so often. They don't really care - just push someone about in a wheelchair, and very often hide behind the fact that the person they are with us disabled. There's a great deal more to caring than that.

Nezumi keep an eye out on Groupon for discounts for snow tubing. I noticed when I was booking our panto tickets the theatre had relaxed performances. I'd not heard of this before - what a great idea!

I can imagine, Wilma. It was for me too. Its natural to be, lets say 'reticent' until you get to know someone, when they are different from what we're used to. That's why its important to include everyone as best you can. It enriches everyone. (Usually!!)

I have also worked in a range of positions in the field of learning disabilities btw - so don’t just have a parent’s perspective.

Sometimes being inclusive does mean providing something different. I am a huge fan of special schools for example. Also a big supporter of relaxed theatre performances (because yes if you’ve paid £80 a ticket for the lion king - you want to be able to hear it and it makes the theatre accessible to people who would otherwise never try it) youtu.be/EQRdUDgxYzQ

All too often though health and safety or risk assessment is used as a reason to exclude. Two of the most inclusive communities I have come across are the surfing community and the horse riding community - of health and safety doesn’t get in the way of surfing or horse riding then it shouldn’t get in the way of many activities. There will always be some. For example my son (who has severe autism, severe learning disabilities, epilepsy and is non-verbal) could not go tobogganing at the local ski slope as we were concerned he would stick his leg out or try and leave the toboggan which would cause serious injury- but he can snow tube without problem.

MissA apart from dyslexia, I had no experience of people with learning or physical disabilities before either. It was a steep learning curve for me.

My remark that "one of them must knit" was not a conservative attitude. I go to lots of activity groups and if it is an art group, I expect to do art, if it is a knitting group I would expect to knit and meet and chat with similarly minded people If it was a coffee morning or something similar I would expect to chat and meet people.

Even a knit and natter group I would take some sort of needle work as that is the theme of the group. If too many people come who are not following the theme the name should be changed as I would be very disappointed to go to a knitting group where no one knitted.

The OP is upset as she felt the carer in both situations were not doing their job. I am guessing she feels the group is about knitting, something she has a great interest in and the careers behavior was disrespecting the group. Maybe the carer was hoping that the people at the knitting group could teach her client to knit, so giving her an interest and help her exercise her hands but unfortunately that wasn't possible.

With that I had better get on with reading the book for my book group so I can be part of the discussion.

I was terrified when I first went to a house with people with learning disabilities.

It is difficult annsixty particularly since so much of the community education classes was scrapped.

I used to teach literacy, numeracy and IT for the LEA. In the last few years we had ended up having groups of very mixed abilities. Students with special needs joined classes not aimed at them because there was no suitable class available. Lots of effort was put into making it possible for special needs students to join classes and it did require extra preparation with risk assessments, identifying aids, etc., but help was available to do this.

Fortunately the students in most of my classes had individual learning plans and once the basic barriers were overcome, the way we managed having special needs students in the group was having more volunteers in the class, usually on a one to one basis. Most of these students wanted to be in a class of all abilities and I'll be honest, to begin with a lot of the students without special needs were wary of the special needs students - basically because they had so little experience of being around people with disabilities. I remember one student with quadriplegia cerebral palsy in an IT class who was very independent, but he had quite a severe speech impediment. Fortunately he was a very social person and the other students soon learned to 'tune in' to his speech patterns. I learned so much from that group.

But to answer your question about where does it end, personally I think it depends on the type of group and who is paying for the class. If I was paying to attend a class with the expectation of learning something new, then I would have something to say if any group member disabled or not, was disrupting the class for any reason - especially if I was working towards a qualification.

If the class is free, then as far as I'm concerned the more integration is possible, the better. There's too much discomfort and uneasiness about being in the company of people different from yourself (I'm not just talking about disability here) and classes are a great way of overcoming this.

BUT there are balances to be managed in any group and it's the group leader's job to do that. Part of managing the group means being aware and listening to all the members.

Gets off soap box

Football teams etc DO have to include people with disabilities of they’re a social group. If they’re competitive and selecting people on skill then plenty of non-disabled people will be excluded as well and it’s not an issue.

This sounds like a social knitting group. There is no reason to exclude anyone.

It’s a hugely important job MissAdventure with a lot of responsibility. Especially if giving meds etc. It is very undervalued. Needs a massive cash injection from government so that commissioners can afford to pay providers to pay their staff at an appropriate rate.

I was certainly not talking about locking people away, I am outraged by that.
I was talking about the practicalities of the situation and the dynamics of a group which is set up for like minded people with the same interests having to change the dynamics of that group and that interest in the name of "social inclusion"
Do football teams ,swimming clubs , any other sporting clubs have to include people in those clubs who have no ability , just because it is somewhere to take them as was quoted in another post.
I am beyond furious that my posts have been taken this way.
I am a carer for my H who has Alzheimer's not some
NIMBY not wanting my precious little group spoiled.

Meaningful activities can have a huge, huge impact on a persons wellbeing. That is no different whether they are well, have disabilities, or any other issues. I have never thought 'I'm just a carer'. Its one of the most important jobs, as far as I'm concerned, regardless of the pay. In the 90s I was earning up to 15 pounds an hour, my last job was 7.50 an hour, but my wanting to do the job properly hasn't changed. I'm not unskilled; I have all kinds of certificates, covering every aspect of supporting people, but you can't train somebody who isn't bothered into somebody who is. If you're at work, your job is to advocate on behalf of people who may not be able to do so for themselves.

Excellent post Nezumi
I experienced discrimination first hand, when I had to give up my career.. and that was working for an inclusive public body.

Miss Adventure is speaking lots of sense re H&S and the role of the carer. Activities coordinator is such an important role - makes the difference between a meaningful life and not.

Social inclusion is very good up to a point

This sort of statement is outrageous. It’s 2017 - the days of locking people away due to disability have (largely) gone (see the shocking Dispatches programme on St Andrew’s for the shocking exceptions to that). Social inclusion isn’t something that should only happen if it doesn’t inconvenience those without disabilities.

No-one is suggesting that the lady in the wheelchair was at fault, but the carer whose responsibility it was to bring the the lady to the knitting group and attend to her needs failed to do that. Paid or unpaid she had the responsibility for this lady while they where there.

Sorry but that it a bit patronising - nobody is responsible for me when I am out and about in my wheelchair/walker. I make my own decisions and decide when I wish to ask for help. No-one is taking that right away from me or forcing help on me that I haven't asked for and don't want.

These attitudes are one of the reasons why I refuse to use my wheelchair much even though I need it. People make assumptions that you are incapable and talk to DH instead.

oh dear me - sounds like we have some very conservative attitudes here - let me speak up - and down - for carers. Firstly, I care for my 91 year old mother who can no longer leave the house in her wheelchair I am sad to say. I spent my entire career as an academic, and take my caring role seriously, but it is a very hard one - a much, much harder life than that of someone who can enjoy spending time in a knitting group. Secondly, I began 'caring' full-time for my mum before I was 60 and received around £54 a week from the state for doing that - a cleaner doing a full-week's work would have received around £350 a week at that time - see the unfairness? Once I became 60 that amount disappeared as I was of pensionable age - a pension I had worked all my life for. Many, many carers are therefore, unpaid. Those who are employed by agencies receive £8 an hour and that's in London. I assume it's less outside of London. That compares with cleaners who charge £13 an hour as a minimum in London. After this ramble my point is this - carers are the worse-treated employees in the country, and that's the fault of the government - those who need care are largely ignored by conservative thinking and hence, left to struggle through life just hoping that the carers they are assigned are willing to continue wiping their bottoms etc. for a pittance. Those who sit in judgement about the occasional lapse of concentration of the carer and the inconvenience of being placed next to a disabled person who needs some help ... I hope one day you find yourself in need ...

I really am behind the devil's advocate now and also getting away from the OP.
Regarding the social aspect, several people have said the lady in the wheelchair may not be capable of knitting but likes the company and the chat, the same could apply to book group's, said lady is not interested in reading in depth or discussions but likes to listen to the others and enjoys the glass of wine, which I am told is often integral to book group's.
Where does it end?
How many people will be welcomed? They could end up outnumbering the members who do want to knit and discuss books.
Social inclusion is very good up to a point.
Who lays down the rules and however difficult applies them.

I think you have made a good point here. No-one is suggesting that the lady in the wheelchair was at fault, but the carer whose responsibility it was to bring the the lady to the knitting group and attend to her needs failed to do that. Paid or unpaid she had the responsibility for this lady while they where there. Probably this outing was designed to get the lady involved in some social activity ....maybe knitting is,nt her thing but meeting other people was probably the intention here to get her out and about. If they attend again I would point out to her carer when she needs help with something otherwise it will carry on in the same way.

There should have been a risk assessment done regarding accessibility and safety. Support workers are trained these days, and risk assessment is mandatory.

Nezumi you appear to have misunderstood my post. I'm not trying to exclude the lady in the wheelchair. Disability rights legislation means that the space should be suitable for people with disabilities and that often means there is specific guidance for wheelchair users (or anyone with disabilities). The person with the disability should not be disadvantaged, but this sometimes mean that extra measures are necessary to make this possible. Everyone should be aware of the H&S arrangements and it's good practice to have fire drills or at least alarm testing in buildings open to the public.

If there's a problem with the PA, the conversation about H&S with the lady in the wheelchair (and/or her PA) would be the ideal time to cover what is required of the PA to make sure the lady gets the most out her time in the group. Perhaps the PA is required to push the wheelchair, in which case she needs to know she can't just rush out of the building if the alarm goes off. She has to get her client out (without endangering herself). Everybody should have been made aware of the H&S arrangements when the group started or when they joined the group.

With reference to the capability of the lady in the wheelchair, presumably when someone new joins the group a discussion takes place with the lady in charge. It's up to her to decide what skill levels are required to join and what support (if any) is available from the group members. For example, is it a group for people who can already knit, or are beginners welcome and if so, who does the teaching? If the current situation is not working, it's up to the person in charge to deal with the it. Perhaps you need to share your thoughts with the person in charge.

Other posters are right though. There's a lot of reasons why the lady in the wheelchair wants to join the group. The lady in the wheelchair may be there for social aspect and it could be irrelevant whether or not she is able to learn to knit. I understand what you're saying about the age of the person in charge, but it is up to her. Sharing your thoughts might be helpful to her in deciding whether the group is suitable for the lady in the wheelchair and the expectations of support from the PA needs discussing.