Marks & Spencer’s selling Hijabs for young children.

Riverwalk having seen primary school children in such tops (and don't mention the school disco where the 9 year olds had to be seen to be believed) I can tell you that you would have a parental rebellion on your hands if you tried to ban them. But both they and the hijab project parental beliefs onto children, one is culturally accepted and one isn't.

Exactly trisher - not to mention the pole dancing parties for primary school children, well that would be girls rather than 'children' wouldn't it.

I don't understand why feminisms is seen as a problem on this issue. Am I missing something.

It would seem that clothing of young girls ( it’s always aimed at the girls isn’t it) are giving out the same message in polar opposite ways, one section dress their girls in mini me sexualised clothes, the other inflicts a puritanical sexuality connotation. And companies are making money out of both. It’s a bit like the egg & the chicken as to which came first. A lot of us grew up at a time when clothes suited the weather, the heating or lack of, the cost & durability. Not to mention the hand- me downs, & repair the & make do’s.

Bit late to this as only just saw it.

M&S stated that there were quite a few school it caters for that highlight a need for them.

The truth is, whether we think it's appropriate or not, the UK has become a very multicultural society and have decided that we will respect each others choice and religions (unlike some other countries) and with that comes products like this.

If their religion insists or offers them this choice to wear one, then that's their choice. M&S are simply aiding their customers wishes who have highlighted a need for this product.

For 3yr olds ( that would be playschool) ?
which M& S are cashing in on.

Errr...MandS is a business...cashing in is what they do..

And it seems we are daft enough to let them.

How would 'we' stop them Bridgeit?

By the way, I drove along one of the main roads in an area with a predominantly Pakistani Asian community here as school came out today. I saw primary school children, either in uniform or in 'ordinary' clothing. I saw only 3 mothers who weren't wearing a burkha and face veil, they wore hijab and long clothing.

Stop who ? Marks & Spencer’s , do you mean?

I may have misread your post Bridgeit but, yes, I thought you were referring to M and S .

it just happens to be M& S that are selling them for 3 yr olds ( not sure if this is country wide ) 3 just seems a bit young to be wearing them. But that’s just my opinion which is why I wondered what others think.

Thanks. I suspect what will stop m and s producing this item will be when it fails to sell. Profit rules and my non scientific research in our town suggests the demand doesn’t exist. Also, if it did, the item would be on sale in thd many Asian clothing shops and market stalls and cheaper

If their religion insists or offers them this choice to wear one

It doesn't though.

The Quran doesn't suggest that pre pubescent girls cover their hair any more than the Bible suggests that little girls should wear padded bikini tops.

It is not about a right to religious expression at all

None of it is about religious expression. As a teacher I worked with many Muslim ladies, in the role of bilingual assistants. I was assured by many that the Koran, like the Bible, merely states that both men and women should dress modestly. The idea of what is modest is different in different cultures. So most Arab women dress in western clothes, but cover up whilst out of the house in an abaya, or similar, sometimes just just a long black coat. However women from Pakistan or Bangladesh, will wear a salwar kameez, because this doesn’t show the shape of the female form, and again they will wear a long coat or cardigan when out of the house. They only cover their hair when with men who are not family members, therefore outside. I was also told that girls to not need cover their hair at all before puberty, and that women only need cover hair after they have made the pilgrimage to Mecca. Many choose to cover hair because they wish to, not because they have to. Whilst I worked with one lady who wore a hijab, most of the ladies used an extremely flimsy scarf, and others no head covering at all. Some of our Mediterranean ladies wore western clothing and no covering up at all. So it brings us back to the fact that covering up the hair is cultural, and different forms of coverings are used, or not used, according to where the family orginates from. The hijab for three year olds is a cultural, not religious, form of dress, and one I strongly do not agree with, because it sexualises young children, just as skimpy crop tops etc sexualise young children. I think it is a sad reflection of our society that both forms of dress are both sold and worn. Commercialism has brought many benefits, but it is a double edged sword, and it has also brought us many disadvantages. Hijabs for three year olds are one of them.

Notanan, you are right again.

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I passed by my local Mosque last night. Lots of Muslim children coming out. All the young girls were in hijabs.

Boys were wearing the long shirts and trousers plus a sort of skull cap/ fez.

It may be a local custom, or simply what is worn to Mosque. A bit like Sunday Best for Church/ Chapel goers.

I think to be fair to Muslims we are in danger of hypocrisy here.

We were told to "embrace multiculturalism" some years ago (I think under Blair?).

As I recall, this was non-negotiable.

Muslims and the culture of Islam were welcomed with open arms.

Some of us clearly don't like some of these cultural signals.

Too late.

My own theory is that perhaps practisers of Islam, faced with cultural liberalism, are unable to cope with it. Islam is a religion that demands obedience. Christianity (generally) practises tolerance,

Perhaps Muslims NEED strict codes, and in the absences of these in a Christian society, rebel by becoming even more conservative than they otherwise would be.

oldgimmer

Christianity doesn't practise tolerance particularly even though Christ did. Have a look at the persecution under the Tudors, the Spanish, certain parts of current day US. Christianity also demands obedience though it's not in the title as Islam is. The UK's always been multicultural - with bits of resistance including expelling the Jews. We've taken in all sorts including the Huguenots and Dutch.

I agree multicultural got messed up when it started to mean turning a blind eye to both extreme Islam and ignoring appalling goings on within the Muslim community. Which made it all worse.

I agree with maddyone wholeheartedly and thank her for her post.

Don't the Klu Klux Klan claim to be Christian? They are not very tolerant.

Yes

and that's an under-statement!

I agree multicultural got messed up when it started to mean turning a blind eye to both extreme Islam and ignoring appalling goings on within the Muslim community. Which made it all worse

How do you know both of these things went on please?

Oldbatty, whilst I didn’t write the sentence you quoted, I think possibly what was meant by the poster was that sadly a blind eye appeared to be turned to extreme Islamic clerics for quite a long time. A blind eye has also been turned to young girls not attending school and disappearing from the country, in other words forced marriage. A blind eye has been turned to FGM, only one prosecution and yet we know thousands of girls have suffered this both in this country and have been taken abroad for it to be done. And possibly the worst of all, the appalling cases of men who groom white girls and then regularly rape them, and pass them around other men, in Rotherham this happened whilst the police and Social Services wantonly ignored all the evidence and refused to investigate for years. The sex adviser who badgered the authorities about these girls was rewarded by being sacked! And most of these events have taken place in the Muslim communities across Britain.
But this does mean every community and family are engaged in such things, I should know because I worked amongst Muslim families for years, and just like every other community, there are good and bad. But we cannot bury our heads in the sand and pretend that there are not some very serious issues which were not, and often still are not being addressed. Forced marriage and FGM are the ones I’m particularly thinking about, and I’m sorry but it is mainly Muslim communities where these things are happening. In my opinion, multiculturalism is a dismal failure. What should have happened is that newly arriving immigrants should have been integrated properly into our society, whilst respecting everyone’s right to freedom of religion and speech. Respect works two ways.

Excellent post maddy, by somebody who clearly knows what they are talking about. I'm not entirely sure multiculturalism has failed though.

I didn't realise young children wore them.