To be annoyed by obvious waste by nhs

Exactly PECS Everyone who is treated in A&E is expected to supply an address and the name of their GP. If they have neither of these it might be appropriate (unless they were obviously homeless or a rough sleeper) to ask about their country of origin. BUT this cannot be done on the basis of "looks". The only policy I can think similar to such an idea is the Nazi idea of measuring heads and faces, and looking at colouring in the search for a true Aryan race. When is it a 'friendly' question, are we not talking about officialdom here? I can think of loads of times people have posted about how doctors/hospital receptionists have treated them in a less than caring way. Are we to assume that when asking this particular question all staff will be 'friendly'?
Mabel2It's an interesting question, and one that comes up as well in the creation of all-women short lists for MPs. You would hope that after a cerain time had passed most organisations would have managed to create as diverse a workforce as possible, but that doesn't seem to happen. It woud be best done I think by looking at the job requirements and including in that the necessity to be more diverse, hopefully then the peolpe who apply can be sorted not just by their qualifications but also by the extra qualities they bring to the role.

It would also be racist to assume everyone who did not appear "White British" is likely to be a recent immigrant or a visitor to UK not entitled to free services.

When registering with a GP one has to provide a range of information including NI and NHS number. Presumably if these cannot be provided it would indicate non-entitlement to free treatment and an invoice for any services would be sent.
I have been in A&E and seen people given forms to complete if they have no GP or have declared they are not entitled to free NHS care.

Yes exactly, Elegran wrt your 15:16 post. Asking a friendly question isn't racist.

One of the interesting things about people is where they are from and how they live/lived differently there, how their ethnic or genetic mix has produced their looks and stature and bearing, Asking about these things in a friendly way isn't racist. Not noticing any difference in their appearance is like wearing a blindfold in an art gallery, or earplugs at a concert. They could be very pleased to talk about the differences. What would NOT be welcomed is implying that the difference makes them inferior in some way - THAT would definitely make things difficult for them and be racist.

If it is considered racist to ask someone where they are from if they look and sound as though they are from another country, then the alternative is to ask every single user of the NHS the question whenever they present for treatment, emergency or not, at an NHS centre.

Added up over the day, that would take up a lot of time and produce a lot of paperwork to be filed away. It would also generate a great deal of resentment among those who were born here and whose ancestors have lived here as far back as anyone can remember - yet another layer of bureaucracy to be applied. Surely there is a first filter of whether an ordinary non-racist person would think "Here is a visitor to our shores. Is he/she entitled to use the facilities that we pay taxes for, or will he/she have to be invoiced?" If they are asked, it only takes a moment for them to answer - and to produce their passport if they are visiting.

So Trisher, taking your point further, ' It's about how actions can be used which make life difficult or different for someone because of the colour of their skin or their ethnic origin. '
I would be interested in how you view the so called positive discrimination policies employed in many industries, which whilst helpful to those included in them (mainly minorities) are less than positive for those excluded, who may be just as able as those included. By your definition this is racist towards those of the majority who are excluded.
Before you 'have a go' at me, I'm playing devils advocate here. Everyone should be treated the same.

It is amazing that some people don't understand racism isn't just how one person feels about something. It's about how actions can be used which make life difficult or different for someone because of the colour of their skin or their ethnic origin. So how would you judge if a person 'looked as if they might not be British"?

My DD2 is often thought to be 'other' than English because of her dark hair, eyes and olive skin. Most people who know my roots assume she gets her looks from my Palestinian family but in fact she is like her paternal grandmother. My grandma had blue eyes. Stereotypes do not always work!

One of my daughters is constantly asked where she is from/where she was born because of her looks and accent. Quite often these questions come from people who are themselves not British. Not long ago, here in the U.K. an Italian man approached her in a library to ask where in Italy she was from and then when she said she wasn't from Italy insisted she simply must be Italian because of her looks!! Others have asked if she's Australian/Greek/Swedish/Arabic/Middle-Eastern/Spanish/South African/Jewish/French.

She doesn't regard any of this as racist, just people being curious and interested in their fellow humans.

Right before you lot start throwing accusations around you might like to look at what I actually said. I said it was racist to ask someone who looks as if they might not be British where they were born. It is racist to judge people on their looks. I didn't say it was racist to ask everyone who accesses NHS services for identification. And actually everyone is asked for identification in the form of your address and the name of your GP. Our A&E does provide services free of charge in emergencies but that doesn't mean they don't collect fees from people afterwards. It may interest you to know that I had an accident on holiday some time ago, all my treatment was covered by my insurance, and when I came home I successfully took action against the holiday company for negligence, shortly after I received the payment I got a letter from the NHS saying if I had received treatment in the UK after the accident (I hadn't) I would have to repay the costs out my award. So the NHS does follow up on treatment nd costs.

Mabel2, it’s clearly absolute rubbish for anyone to suggest that being asked to show that you are eligible to receive NHS treatment is racist. Our Accident and Emergency departments provide free treatment for anyone, regardless of who they are or where they’re from. That’s as it should be, no one wants accident victims being ignored BUT that is where free treatment should stop. We have all paid for our NHS and it is NOT for the whole world regardless of what Trisher says. We have a National Health Service, not a World Health Service!

Not precious about my body parts ican but maybe the person doing the scanning might have a problem!

Nonnie, me too but I expect we're being naive as to the downsides of that. I think microchips can move and you might be having to put another body part to the machine.

ican we microchip pets, I would be happy to be microchipped with my NHS, passport and NI numbers so I just had to show my wrist to a machine. It would be so much easier than going through all my cards looking for the right one. Just think how easy that would be for any employer, at the airport, landlords etc. {grin]. Now I've opened the floodgates to receive quotes from George Orwell!

I would happily show a form of identity to prove I was entitled to free NHS treatment if it meant that the system wasn't being abused. I think it is naive to think that everybody in the world can use the system and it still be able to cope with the raft of treatments it offers. At the same time, I think there have to be times when treatment is offered regardless of status, ie. in an emergency.

Everyone requiring treatment at hospitals in our area are asked if they were born here/how long they have lived in UK. Why would this be thought of as racist? Why is asking about the need for interpreters racist? We shout racism far too quickly.

I was admitted to hospital in France while on holiday there a few years ago and woke in the night to find an oriental looking doctor putting up a new drip. I speak some French so asked him what the drip was for, but could not understand his response. He did not speak English and it didn't even occur to me to ask for an interpreter. He eventually explained with a certain amount of gesturing and waving about of arms what the drip was for. I think I understood, but at the end of the day I had to take it on trust that the treatment was appropriate.
As for wastage in the NHS I worked for the |NHS for almost 10 years back in the 1980s and every year as the financial year end approached, we were told to order whatever we wanted on 'quickspend' as any money in our budgets which was left over was likely to result in budget cuts the next year. I can remember expensive pieces of equipment being bought at this time that were rarely used and we could have managed perfectly well without. I have no idea whether this practice continues as it is now many years later, but it certainly bothered me at the time. If I had any say, which I occasionally did, I always suggested we stock up on disposables as they would always be needed and would get used eventually thereby safeguarding the next year's budget without wasting money on unnecessary stuff.
I used to set myself personal challenges to carry out procedures using the minimum number of disposable items or using smaller / cheaper items for the same tasks as a way of saving money, but it was not the laboratory's policy to do that, just my own practice to contribute in a small way.

trisher ideally we would give free NHS help to everyone who asked for it but it must be difficult for staff to find a way of working out who should get free treatment and who should pay. I made some suggestions but you chose not to comment on those just to pull out one part of my post. I'm sorry you find it so hard to be constructive.

Nonnie Is it racist to ask someone who looks as if they may not be British where they were born?
Yes it is!
There has been a Yemeni community near here for over 150 years. They are British, no matter how they look

Is it racist to ask someone who looks as if they may not be British where they were born? Perhaps less than tactful but if we carried ID cards it would be so much simpler for the staff to know who is entitled to use our NHS and who is not. I don't know how we should check who is entitled and who is not as you could have someone who 'looks' British but isn't entitled to use the NHS. Does our NHS number show entitlement? Perhaps that could be more widely used.

I am also happy for my taxes to help the genuine refugees but wonder why that needs to include lessons in the language of the country which has taken them in. It seems to me that people gravitate towards their own communities so why can't the more established help the newcomers learn the language? DS was useless at French at school but soon learned to speak it fluently when he went to live in Switzerland. He has since lived in two other countries and learnt to speak their languages without any lessons. If he can do that in the country of my friend I don't understand why others who are motivated can't do the same. One of our local BBC news presenters who wass born in this country interviewed her mother, who had come to the UK in the 60s, and had to speak to her in her original language because she didn't understand English. The TV presenter seems to be well educated so why couldn't her mother learn the language? I can only assume she chose not to.

Nonnie, your friend is welcome to the approach she says is taken by her government. I'm relieved to live in a country that takes a different approach.

If you've "moved from third world countries", its more than likely you have sought asylum because you're fleeing war or famine and desperately trying to keep your children alive. I'm happy for some of my taxes to go towards supporting those people.

It's very difficult not to feel a degree of racism and bigotry in some comments here.

Incidentally, a friend who was born in Europe, has lived in the UK 50 years and contributed hugely to this country has been asked where she was born at each of her recent hospital appointments. She is of IndoChinese heritage and asked a group of friends gathered together recently how many of us have been asked that question. None other than you came the reply.

trisher why should we pay for people to learn English? When I asked a European friend what happened if people moved to her country she said they sent their children to international schools. I explained I meant people who moved from third world countries and she said there was no provision, they had to pay themselves.

I agree that the leaflets in big hospitals should be in many languages but I do wonder how much interpreters cost. It must be very expensive if they have to have medical knowledge as well. Why do they need that?

I agree any publicly funded organisation needs to be run as efficiently & as cost effectively as possible.

However the increased micromanagement of operational aspects of provision, by successive governments, has increased the levels of bureaucracy.
The setting of unhelpful and arbitrary targets have often distracted professionals from the core purpose of their work .
Deliberate dismantling & undermining of the service by government policy of underfunding, which also impacts on training, development, recruitment & retention of staff has not exactly helped.

All this whinging about "foreign people" either wasting money by needing translators, or the overseas medical staff we rely on having 'accents' is racism in my book!
I know of young (white) South African and Australian couples who have deliberately chosen to come to be in the UK to have their babies on the NHS and then returned home! perfectly legit and I do not mind but feel if they had been brown skinned it would have been "exposed" in certain press.

Many appointments are never kept, medicines wasted, worried well use up appointments/resources.

Not necessarily *Mabel28 this may be a mother with a young child or children whose husband is in full time employment . Health is a specialised area that needs someone who has enough vocabulary to be able to translate complicated medical information. If there was a working, free efficient language teaching programme in this country which was available to all I might agree that interpreters were unnecessary. There isn't. In fact all English language teaching even in schools has been cut. Children do learn but it is thanks to the extra efforts of staff not to a proper ESL programme.

Trisher, if someone is working, then they would probably have enough knowledge of English not to need an interpreter. Most other government departments use either a telephone based interpreting service or allow the family to translate for their non English speaking member.
Too many people live in countries for years and years without bothering to learn the language of the country they live in.