University degrees: what’s the difference?

It's a pity that we seem to have lost all the day release and evening classes. Back in the 60s my friend had no chance of going to University as her mother was a widow and they needed her working. She did A Levels and got a job in a laboratory with a large pharmaceutical company. Over the years she added to her qualifications at evening classes and ended up in a very high managerial position. This doesn't seem to happen nowadays.

Grannybeek Sorry, I can't entirely agree with your comment, maybe a wee bit too general.

"""Tangentially, I always found it interesting that GCSE grades were a more accurate indicator than A level grades of how well a student would do at university."""

My dd did just 'ok' at GCSE grade and once she did a successful resit on her English went on to do her A levels where she got 4 at top notch.

She finished her Primary Degree at First Place in her year.

what a wonderful word!

twazzocks

I did not go to university at 18 but a Teacher Training College. We had lectures & seminars on philosophy & history of education as well as pedagogy. In addition we had to study a 'curriculum' course too. I studied Dance & Drama This had to be both at our own academic level as well as to learn how to deliver it as a curriculum subject in school. It was three years of interesting academic work as well as practical as we had to have so many weeks in the classroom too. We also grew up! In my case I was in London, in digs. Independence, managing budgets laundry etc. etc. plus negotiating relationships, sharing accommodation, work schedules and so on are all part of HE life and equally important, imo to the academic side.

The broadening of HE, to include degrees in less traditional university subjects has, for some, de-valued degrees.
This all harps back to our incredibly snobby attitude to academic ability vs practical ability. I do believe it is good to study, at the highest levels we are capable of, just for the pleasure of learning and not solely to gain employment though of course that is useful! We need all sorts of people, with all kinds of abilities, to make the world go round. I know some wonderfully useful people who left school at 16 but have made a huge contribution to society and some very useless twazzocks with doctorates! Judge not on the qualification but on the the actions and application! Sadly stupid computerised systems of recruitment are probably created by the twazzocks!

Total agreement from me Grandma70. One of mine did what is sometimes called a useless degree. She is creative, artistic rather than academic. Bad parent that I am I encouraged her year out and advised her to follow her bliss. She did performance drama and multi media at a university seen as excellent fir its arts degrees. She’s teaching primary school so doing ‘useful’ work where the skills learned at uni are very useful ?. Plus she had a good time and learned so many life skills during what turned into five years of study

Iam64, I have never thought of students paying for ‘lecture time’! They are paying for the privilege of being at university, exchanging views with like minds (including lecturers/tutors), using the wonderful libraries. Lectures are part of it, but not the point. Discussion is far more important. I am talking about arts subjects. Science may be different.

I read English at a Russell Group redbrick, with my higher degree in London. Then I taught at Russell Group universities. I can’t remember how many lectures I did per week, but a lot of a lecturer’s time is taken up by their own research. My younger son is the one with Cambridge experience, and he certainly didn’t spend much time at lectures, though supervisions were a must, plus very frequent essays. Elder son did computer science at one of the newer universities, but I really only have experience of the arts.

Ah, the MA at Oxford and Cambridge, also Dublin, is as I thought still an automatic follow-on from the BA., no teaching, no exam. The M.Phil and M.Sc are exam courses, so different. That’s the trouble with calling a degree a ‘Master’s’. It doesn’t mean much without being more specific.

I did have to work for my London MA, as I specified earlier, but there was no teaching. I did my own research.

One of mine did English at an excellent (old) university which was 8 in the top 10 at the time. She had about 8 hours lectures a week - these days paying huge amounts for lecture time, maybe students or their parents expect much more. She had a very good time at uni and though her work isn't directly related, having an English degree is a bonus.

We did not expect a lot of teaching at university. Students were supposed to think for themselves and organise their own work. It is not school. When I did university teaching at a redbrick that was the attitude, too. Lectures were just a trigger for the students’ own ideas. With any luck they were inspiring. Discussion in seminars was more important.

I am amazed there was a lot of teaching for a ‘Master’s’ (MA? MSc?) at Oxford. An Oxford MA follows automatically when you get a BA, or used to. For my London MA there was no teaching at all. I did it myself, just chatting with my supervisor from time to time.

I’m going to look up the MA at Oxford to see if it’s now a taught course. ‘My day’ is quite a long time ago! Even my sons’ university life is a while ago now.

Perhaps universities have become more like schools these days, but it probably depends on the university and the course.

Hello Grandma70 - I agree with you, there's more to going to university than getting a degree.
I wasn't fortunate enough to go till I was 30, by that time a single parent so I did a professional qualification over 2 years but I enjoyed every second of my time there. I was determined my children would have the opportunity if they wanted it. They did Arts degrees - seen these days as 'useless'. Nope they aren't useless. They both enjoyed their university lives, grew up and made good friends. One went on the do the PGTC, the other to start an MA which she later dropped. Both are working and neither regret going. The expense is now prohibitive for most young people would in fact have been for them given the amount we were able to contribute.
I dislike the snobbery, the anti university simplistic criticism taken by some. I'm all in favour of good apprenticeships, work based training and I do believe 2 rather than 3 year degrees may be a better idea

Our daughter went to a Russell Group university and only had 3hours of teaching a week. We wondered what we were paying for. She did well working on her own and then did a Master’s at Oxford, where she was amazed by the amount of teaching she got!

I agree with your isms Gramma and have an interesting example. A woman applied for a social worker post. She had to put her place of birth which was Jamaica. The interviewers were nonplussed when she arrived for her interview - she is white! Prejudice can work the other way too.

Yeah! I was going to add that I hate tick box, online application forms with a vengeance.
I don't apply for jobs thank goodness but I apply to funding bodies for grants for volunteer work.

I also have a friend who is not British but EU, and whatever they say about equality we were convinced that as soon as they read her name on an application she was passed over despite being well qualified for the jobs.
Racism and sexism is alive and well. Even my friends showed stunning ignorance and presumed she was in Britain looking for seasonal farm or cafe work when she has an MA and years of experience in her field of science.
She found work eventually but not in the UK.

All of the anecdotes and historical situations are very interesting. However, if the computer wont let you get past the ‘grade of degree’ button, none of it matters.

The problem is that there has been huge grade inflation in recent years. Back in the day when I went to University a 1st was for rare talents (My department gave a 1st once every 3-5 years) and 2.1s were for excellent students.

These days the truth is that 70-80% of University degrees are awarded 1sts and 2.1s - even the Russell Group. So your niece needs to look at other ways to stand out. Perhaps work experience, additional skills or initially accepting lower level job to show what she can do.

My father used to interview graduates who wanted to work for a major financial organisation. He used to tell the story of the time he had applicants from Oxbridge, Russell group and one for Portsmouth Polytechnic. After the interview it was his habit to ask his secretary what she thought of the applicants. After these interviews the secretary chose the candidate that was polite and had cleaned the back of his shoes properly and dad chose the candidate who had researched the organisation and job - they were in agreement for the candidate from Portsmouth got the job - attention to detail matters!

I was a university admissions tutor (admittedly on a profession-specific degree). All the university degrees had to provide evidence of including employability skills in their courses. The important skills, according to the Institute of Directors, are:
communication
teamwork
problem solving
initiative and enterprise
planning and organising
self-management
learning
technology.

Any job application should therefore focus on these. Many employers require degrees to prove that the applicant has the ability to study at degree level.

Tangentially, I always found it interesting that GCSE grades were a more accurate indicator than A level grades of how well a student would do at university.

GA of course what you say is true, especially about having interesting things on the CV. However none of that will help when it is company policy to have a certain level of qualification. If you don't have that you will be rejected.

If it's any consolation I have worked in a large government department for years. I have seen a job in another department for which I have all the right experience plus additional relevant qualifications. The first stage of the recruitment is an online psychometric test which I just cannot seem to pass !

I've just read through all the responses to the OP and they demonstrate quite clearly many of the difficulties there are nowadays in getting that first job after graduation. Also that the correlation between having a degree at all, the class of degree and where the degree was obtained may or may not influence future employment prospects

One of my sons did an engineering degree, although not at a RG university. He was very ill during his course and was only able to complete it through sheer determination. He missed a 2:1 by a single point so his final degree was a 2:2, nevertheless he was one of the first in his cohort to be offered a job - after submitting a CV, completing an online application form, psychometric testing, a phone interview and then a day of individual and group project work, a presentation and an interview! He is very bright, hardworking, resilient etc, but I think he actually got to the interview stage, not because of, or in spite of, his degree (after all, everyone who applies has got the 'essential' qualification), but because of his extra-curricular interests. I believe that employers are looking for people who have already demonstrated work capability and he was able to do that.

vickymeldrew The point I'm trying to make is that the class of degree is only one area of importance when it comes to getting employment. It's hard seeing young people become demoralised and losing motivation, but I'm sure if she perseveres your niece will get there in the end and in the meantime your support will mean a lot to her.

Deeda It seems very unfair to me that because a person has had a mental breakdown they should not be able to seek employment in the field in which they have studied. Given that it is said roughly a third of people will at some stage in their lives have a mental health issue, is it right that they should be treated in such a way?

An article in the Guardian in 2011 re disclosure of mental health issues to prospective employers included this:

"The Equality Act 2010 banned the use of pre-employment questionnaires which force candidates to answer questions about their health, and enhanced the protection from discrimination available to people with mental health problems. However hostile the workplace may have been, there are now signs that things are finally moving on."

It seems they're not moving on that quickly.

I have to come back onto this thread.
Degrees are actually going out of fashion.... my youngest opted out last minute pretty much wouldn’t [ couldn’t) be persuaded to defer.
It wasn’t just her it’s seems to be becoming more and more the thing, unless something more vocational. I believe it’s actually a good thing.

Is the idea that a university educates rather than trains completely dead? Education is not always, or even usually, about jobs.

With so many young People With a degree there is a lot of competition. She could go back to university and get her teaching certificate. There is a shortage of science teachers. Honest in in Cambridge is a good one I have heard. Or she could aim for a Masters degree. Wishing her luck

Too many students going to university and too many with degrees. As somebody said you're as likely to be turned down for being over qualified as under.

Eloethan I agree.
What is the point if a graduate ends up with a huge debt and little prospect of the type of career they were aiming for?

Many young people are opting not to join in with this unless they have a particular ambition which requires a degree and post-grad qualifications.

I do hope your niece finds something suitable soon, vickym.