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To feel so upset and angry

(25 Posts)
Opalsusanna1 Tue 30-Jul-19 17:19:35

My husband and brother in law have POA for their father who is 98 and suffering from vascular dementia. My brother in law had POA for my m.i.l. before she passed away. There is a third brother who lives a good 200 miles away and this was one reason he does not have it too. The other reason is that he has criminal record for claiming almost £40000 in benefits whilst claiming a sickness pension. His brothers had to pay almost £4000 in legal fees for him which they have not received back. His partner had to sell property I think to pay off a proceeds of crime order against him.

The three of them own the parental home through a trust and over the years, he has used it as a base to live in when he comes back up here. This has lead to him wanting to buy it from the trust which is not as easy as it sounds so this was made clear to his partner as he cannot negotiate with his brothers without it leading to a huge row. I have been happy to help my husband manoeuvre his way through the legal stuff as he's more than 10 years older than me and finds dealing with it hard but all decisions made on his father's behalf are his and his middle brother's.

This weekend he has been up to stay at the family house and contacted my husband about a repair. He began shouting and swearing and followed this up with a series of disgustingly worded text messages in which he accused my husband of handing his POA to me and that I was using their father's money to fund a small community business I run - something I always wanted to do. This certainly isn't the case and I am devastated by these horrible lies. I haven't done anything yet as my husband said it will all die down. Btw, this brother has been diagnosed as having a mental illness and has been in therapy for over five years. I know he's a liar and I should take no notice but I feel so upset and would very much appreciate a bit of advice.

Daisymae Tue 30-Jul-19 19:01:59

This is a very difficult situation, but I think that your husband is right in that it will blow over. There's a lot going on here and people do react differently when there's family money, or come to think of it, any money at stake. It would probably be best if the house was sold, at the right time, on the open market. Would solve a lot of problems. Your BiL has a mental illness and there's not much to be gained by challenging him. I would leave as much to your husband as possible.

EllanVannin Tue 30-Jul-19 20:37:27

Nothing worse than money/property for tearing families apart. A pretty awful predicament. Try and shut out BiL's remarks as he's obviously unwell.
Hopefully something will be sorted sooner rather than later.

BradfordLass72 Wed 31-Jul-19 03:21:13

Your husband is right - it will all die down.

His words, hurtful though they clearly were, are empty lies. You have done none of the things he accuses.
You know that, as does your husband, so let it go.

Witzend Wed 31-Jul-19 09:00:02

Poor you, Opal, how very upsetting. Sadly this sort of upset would seem quite common where there's a P of A, siblings, and particularly dementia, involved. Though more often I've read (on a dementia forum, sadly I have a too much experience of it) of a sibling with P of A shamelessly abusing it to help themselves to money.

I'm sure pps are right, and that it will blow over, but that won't stop it being so very upsetting now. You know you've done absolutely nothing wrong and at least the brother can't help himself, thank goodness.

Missfoodlove Wed 31-Jul-19 09:21:09

I would agree that the house should be sold.

Perhaps your bil feels left out so perhaps his brothers could involve him in decision making.

If he has a criminal record it’s highly unlikely the COP would have allowed him POA but he could see the audits and the online record keeping to assure him of any wrongdoing.

Marjgran Wed 31-Jul-19 09:48:45

So sorry for you. This man has marked antisocial traits and is not to be trusted. I would doubt therapy will help him, his resistance is going to be great, and he is too defensive and self-entitled. Avoid him, politely refuse to accept any insults directed at you, and leave as much as possible to his brothers!

Nonnie Wed 31-Jul-19 10:15:07

I agree with Marjgran. Once the trust has gone there is nothing you can do.

We have been accused of similar things by the narcissist we have to deal with and we find it very distressing. You have done nothing wrong and I think you should remind yourself that these accusations come from his mind and show what he would do in your circumstances. I find it astounding that someone who know you well would have such thoughts about you unless it is the sort of thing they would do themselves.

25Avalon Wed 31-Jul-19 10:23:45

Of course you are upset but who cares what this man's opinion of you is? He has a criminal record and mental health problems and his opinion is worthless like himself. He obviously has serious issues. No one can hand over a power of attorney to someone else. He is clearly miffed that he can't get his own way and has no other means of expressing himself. Your dh is right it will blow over - for now. I think you can only regard this man with pity and ignore his nasty remarks as not worthy of consideration.

Soozikinzi Wed 31-Jul-19 10:27:47

This is very difficult but he wouldn’t be allowed Poa anyway I’m sure my brother wasn’t just because he had a business that went bankrupt so there’s no way he can have it . Meet up with the middle brother and have a chat about it x

sarahellenwhitney Wed 31-Jul-19 11:12:25

Do you need to get involved ?as you may bite off more than you can chew.Allow H to deal with it his way tempting as it may be to 'step in'.

Tigertooth Wed 31-Jul-19 11:18:57

He has a criminal record and mental health problems and his opinion is worthless like himself

Very Harsh! Criminal record - and Mental health issues. The criminal record my have been because of the mental health problems.

This doesn’t render him ‘worthless’

Mitramonday Wed 31-Jul-19 11:28:08

I've just stumbled on this post as I was browsing and concur with most of the answers - property/finance/dementia are a lethal mix when it comes to families, so I do feel for you, OP.
However, I have to be honest and say that I take issue with the opinions of 25Avalon - a criminal record and mental health issues does NOT make someone 'worthless'. Misguided? Yes. Unfortunate? Certainly. Who can judge ANY person 'worthless' - we all (including this brother) have our stories to tell - and his story may shed a light on why he chose to break the law - whether or not his mental health had anything to do with that decision. Regardless of any of that, no person who walks this earth should be considered worthless!

GabriellaG54 Wed 31-Jul-19 12:01:37

Having read your post twice, I conclude that if your husband cannot manage the legal side of POW and finds it hard, then it would be entirely wrong of you to have any say in the discharge of his duties.

If your husband cannot manage his responsibilities re POW, then he should make it known to the trust administrators who will decide who, if anyone, will take on that task.

It may well fall to the brother who currently shares POW with your husband.

I can see that it is muddying the waters if you continue to aid your DH and could pose problems in the long term.

Hetty58 Wed 31-Jul-19 12:01:37

25Avalon, I object too. If you'd left out the words 'like himself' I'd agree with your comment. Somebody can have a criminal record merely because they were caught and prosecuted, whereas others were lucky enough to get away with it.

I think it's vital to keep the brother informed with regular updates of the expenses. Personally, I'd never agree to be attorney again for anyone - too much aggravation and worry. I considered revoking it and really wish I had as the other attorney was very slapdash and uncommunicative. His wife really did take over big time (being the boss in that couple) although she was not an attorney, he always did as he was told!

Opalsusanna1 Wed 31-Jul-19 13:28:30

Thank you so much for your replies which have really helped. To Gabriella - that is an interesting point however, my husband has only asked my opinion when his brother has muddied the waters. He has carried out his Poa as has his second brother, in an exemplary way and everyone believes he should continue. I totally agree that brother 3 should have access to accounts etc:but he has this anyway as he opens all bank statements, bills etc: when he visits the house.
I mentioned his problems in order to present a full picture but the last thing he is, is worthless. I think his opinions might be a bit dodgy but I've known him for over 40 years and have a great deal of affection for him. That's why I was so shocked by what he said and told him so.
I've told my husband not to mention my name when it comes to any queries or problems they may experience with brother 3. I think raising my head above the parapet as it were, may have given him something to focus on. Until recently, he had been telling everyone that his eldest brother had bullied him and his middle one was autistic, both of which are arbitrary and wrong, so I suppose its my turn. I'm going to leave them all to it from now on but thank you so much for the messages and food for thought. X

quizqueen Wed 31-Jul-19 14:12:41

I hope when the house is sold and funds released that the £4,000 is earmarked to be repaid before this brother gets any share.

GabriellaG54 Wed 31-Jul-19 14:17:38

It's a tricky situation but I hope a satisfactory outcome can be achieved.
I understand that you're trying to be fair all round and the fact that, whilst you disagree with some of your BiLs past misdeeds, you still retain your affection for him, is to be respected.
Best wishes to you all.

FC61 Wed 31-Jul-19 14:35:26

It sounds like he has serious mental health issues accusing everyone here and there which will mean you can’t discuss, argue, reason, explain. Isn’t it up to the lawyer to let him know the house will be sold and split (£4000 taken into consideration ) after FIL passed? Horrible when people make ugly accusations but in my experience waste of time explaining. If I’m forced I just say umm ahhh I’ll think about that , then ignore it !

grandtanteJE65 Wed 31-Jul-19 14:55:15

I don't know the law concerning POA in the UK, nor do I know whether you live in England or Scotland, which is likely to make a difference.

I would have thought that you were legally entitled to help your husband with any legal problems that crop up, but maybe not, so please do check that you are not doing anything illegal by acting on your husband's behalf.

Ignore the BIL who has been so abusive. Depending on how well you and your husband gets on with the other brother and depending on how he gets on with the brother who does not have POA, you might want to mention quite casually that you were upset and slightly worried by the load of abuse you recently received from your other BIL.

That way he knows what has been said, if his brother gets in touch with him making allegations about you.

M0nica Wed 31-Jul-19 15:46:18

What this brother did and said was awful, but your husband is right. I do understand how you feel. In your circumstances I find the best cure is a long walk being furious and ranting to myself, then as I approach home I take a big slow breathe and let all the anger run out of my toes. Digging the garden, a long swim or any other physical labour works as well, even a long drive.

Meanwhile, it doesn't matter how this brother rants and raves, it is your DH and his brother who have the POA. End of.

However if you DH is beginning to find managing the POA himself wearing, he can give you a Power of Attorney to act on his behalf in relation to the POA. It might be worth discussing this with the other brother and a solicitor.

My DH had a POA for an aunt and uncle and was also executor of their wills. He traveled a lot on business so gave me a POA to operate these on his behalf when he was away. After they died, we did need to use this when he was executor as he was sent to Indonesia for three months. The uncle's estranged daughter kicked up merry hell over this, but it was all legal and there was nothing she could do. She accused me of theft, cheating and many other things.

Adelphi Wed 31-Jul-19 16:13:44

Sell the house. Ask a solicitor to sort it.
I do feel that mental health is being bashed the hell out of in this and other posts relating to it!?????
I believe that a mental health illness to be the same if not harder than a physical illness.
There are a lot of judgemental grans on here?

blue60 Wed 31-Jul-19 20:42:45

I got accused of trying to manipulate my DH by my late mil in trying to change her will.

I simply did not do or say anything of the kind.

Although very hurtful and shocking at the time, I knew none of it was true and just ignored it.

It is a very difficult time for everyone in the family, and all you can do is be supportive and not take notice of any accusations levelled at you. Hard to do, but it will pass.

Grannyjay Thu 01-Aug-19 10:04:54

MOnica when a person takes out a POA they have to be mentally capable in deciding who they want to do this. It is a legal document and no one can decide on their behalf. If the person or persons they chose cannot carry it out then it has to be in the POA document who the next person can be. It is a very personal document to the person deciding who he can trust to carry out his legal affairs. You cannot just hand it over to someone else an neither can a solicitor decide. If the person was unable to choose their POA because of their mental state then the office of the public guardian become involved. My mother chose my sister and me but my narcissistic brother threatened and cajoled her into not speaking to me or do what my mum wanted and as it was joint there was no way I could anything other than stand down. By that time my mum was unable to decide what was in her best interests and the courts took over. I hope this doesn’t happen in this case as it can be very expensive and neglective for the person needing care. By the way my brother basically spread rumours about me to anyone he could get to listen. The courts and the care homes disliked him immensely but could do nothing. I could write a book about how the so called care system neglect due to stretched resources and fear of legal action. The two brothers who are the attorneys should just get on with their duty of care and ignore the other one who has no legal say. By the way my brother also had a criminal record and was not chosen by my mum which turned him very bitter!

M0nica Thu 01-Aug-19 11:55:58

Grannyj I fully appreciate the need for a person giving a POA needing capacity. When my uncle gave me a POA the solicitor insisted on a medical report, not because she had any doubts of his capacity, but because he had been in hospital the previous year for some months being treated for depression and she wished to make sure that nobody could challenge the grant of the POA to me (not that anyone was likely to).

But if a personholding a POA is having difficult coping then they need to see a solicitor about either giving it up or appointing another person to exercise it. If the person who gave the POA is now incapacitated this should be done through the Court of Protection.

This family have problems with one brother being specifically excluded from holding a POA for reasons that would probably lead to him being considered incapable of disqualified from holding one anyway, but in tricky situations like this any changes need to be done with competent legal advice.