Dolls for boys and cars for girls

In defence of Smyths, approximately 7 years ago my daughter was asked by her friend if she would take my granddaughter to be photographed for Smyths catalogue. Several children were invited, both boys and girls. They were all dressed in the same outfits, and individually sent into a room with their Mum where there was a rocking horse waiting. As each child reacted to the toy they were photographed and my granddaughter was apparently the only one who toddled over to the horse, sat astride and rocked. She was then in the catalogue. So it wasn’t chosen on gender, it was chosen on which child took an interest in the toy!

I don't have time to respond to all the posts individually, but I believe that children are shaped by both nature and nurture. All of my own children were offered a range of toys and each played happily, some more than others, with toys that may often be thought of (by some) as more suited to the opposite gender.

Someone up-thread asked why I was buying a doll for a boy. And my answer would be, why not? The question was asked, How do I know that's what he'd like? Well I don't know, but that's no reason not to find out. Both my sons loved playing with their dolls and pushchairs, so I have assumed my grandson may like that too. In the same way I've just bought some lovely chunky wooden cars for my one year old granddaughter because I see that she enjoys playing with her cousin's cars.

Let me be clear; I am not saying that boys shouldn't or don't want to play with cars etc., or that girls shouldn't wear pink and play with dolls. What I am saying is that real un-gendered choice should be offered.

For people who are interested in the gender bias of toys there is a quite old research paper that looks at the subject here: www.researchgate.net/profile/Nancy_Freeman2/publication/225547072_Preschoolers%27_Perceptions_of_Gender_Appropriate_Toys_and_their_Parents%27_Beliefs_About_Genderized_Behaviors_Miscommunication_Mixed_Messages_or_Hidden_Truths/links/54623ccc0cf2837efdaff435.pdf

Sir C,I had to smile when you shortened my pseudonym to Lancs.
I mean that.
Well done you.
Over and out.

Do they insist their female sales assistants wear heels and makeup to look pretty for the male managers and customers?

I doubt Smyths will do anything, If you ask for a specific toy they will tell you it is in the 'boys aisle' or the 'girls aisle'

If your point is that both men and women have to pass the same fitness and entry tests and pass the same ongoing assessments once they’re in the service then yes, you do Lancs. No gender stereotyping on the part of the fire service.

No one is saying there are no biological bases to gender differences, but there is definitely a "nurture" element in the culture we grow up in and how we are treated and taught which shape our personality and behaviour. There are numerous psychological studies which show this. The monkey study is so tiny and involved a few monkeys and has not been replicated so would not be considered significant scientific evidence. I was a tomboy and played on my bike and disliked dolls, what does that prove? I'm definitely female!

Sir C.
Well I have done a quick check and it would seem that I do have a point.

Yes Chestnut - of course we should blindfold babies

Lancslass it might be worthwhile checking to see what the entry requirements are for fire fighters before you make spurious claims about women in the service.

I , as a parent teacher and grandparent have never subscribed to gender specific toys and suggest that you do your part (as it seems you do) in challenging these stereotypes. I now buy toiletries for my grandchildren made by Sam farmer which completely fit the bill (for older children). There are alternatives out there you just have to hunt and to educate the next generation.

JenniferEccles, the people who hold a knife and stab someone are responsible for knife crime. Anyone from about the age of 12 a) knows that it's illegal and b) knows how to stop their arm from thrusting the knife into someone. All this passing the buck back up the chain is just making people shirk responsibility for their own actions. Heck it might even be making some of them think they can't help it!

I had two boys and tried to be gender neutral but they were completely disinterested in anything traditionally thought of as girly. This was not due to external pressures or copying others.
Now I have two granddaughters and their parents were very determined to be gender neutral and they too are completely disinterested in traditional boyish pursuits.

We have got off the point in all of this Sir C.
It would take too long to debate knife crime.
All I know if that there were not deaths every day from knife crime when I was growing up.
I don’t know anything about entry requirements for fire fighters but I do know that that a very short woman can become a policewoman .

SirChenjin: From a very young age babies tend to see mums as the main carer in the home during the maternity leave, they'll see men driving the digger, trains and fire engines
So what's the problem with that? Maybe we should blindfold babies so they don't know what's going on in the world. Otherwise, they are going to see what is around them, although you seem to think this is somehow going to stop them choosing the toys they really want to play with.

I recommend Steve Stewart-Williams’s very interesting book, The Ape that Understood the Universe on this subject.

My approach was to provide as many kinds of toys and activities as I could and let the kids choose.

I was amazed 15 years ago visiting Toys r us, a blue aisle and a vivid pink aisle. Having had two daughters in the 1970’s who had 200+ dinky cars and 2 train sets, yes some dolls . The cars and train sets were by far their favourites, I was quite disgusted.
Three granddaughters and two grandsons later who have no differences in their toys I cannot believe the apparent lack of equal displays.

Yes, JenniferEccles, it most definitely could!

My grandson cuddles his doll, pushes his pushchair, plays with his Ikea kitchen and then races his cars around. He plays with Lego and has a huge inside climbing frame.

I think he enjoys a good balance of both types of toys.

Well clearly someone is responsible for today’s knife crime but that discussion could lead us on to the question of a lack of appropriate male role models in many households these days.

No Lanc - you answer my question. Do you think parents (of my age) are responsible for knife crime? And did you look at the link I posted? As for the firefigher claim - what do you know about the entry requirements?

Oh come on - 'virtue signalling' to challenge gender stereotyping?! We can and should do everything we can to challenge these outdated stereotypes, they are really not helpful. We've made great strides in the last 50 years - and here's to the next 50.

Who do you think is responsible for the knife crime Sir Chengin?

There are certain jobs that I think men are more suitable for and others that I think women are .
I think that a fire person is one such job.
I am unable to understand how a five foot tall woman can be as strong as a six foot tall man and be able to lift an adult

We accepted that years ago.
Men who were shorter than 5Ft 8ins accepted that they couldn’t be policemen.
Those taller than 6ft something couldn’t be pilots in the RAF .

Im still not sure how people can assume that it is "natural" for a boy to like cars or guns-

Male monkeys like cars

It's not simple

We can try our best not to 'gender stereotype' but it's this way due to the natural world

How far do we go with this? I keep hearing about women wanting to do male oriented jobs in the science world for example/ . Great. But how many women want to be road diggers? Brickies? Even plumbers? Binmen? You just don't see vast swathes of women desperately trying to get into those male dominated careers

Also the prison population. 95% male. Why? Because they were allowed to play with cars? Not sure about that.

But that's way off topic.

We don't need this virtue signalling by people who have too much time on their hands.

Children will play with what they want.

We didn’t have the knife crime then we have now

Oh dear. For example dangerousminds.net/comments/frankie_vaughan_and_glasgows_gang_culture_of_the_1960s Honestly, you're not seriously suggesting parents of today are responsible for knife crime??

Chestnut I disagree, obviously. From a very young age babies tend to see mums as the main carer in the home during the maternity leave, they'll see men driving the digger, trains and fire engines, they'll see women in the kitchen, they'll see soldiers on TV with guns...it's endless. That in turn leads to how they perceive toys.

Im still not sure how people can assume that it is "natural" for a boy to like cars or guns- these are not objects found in the natural world, but created by people, so there has to be some kind of learning to know what these objects are in the first place. The fact that there are differences between individual children which are not gender based would suggest that we should not compartmentalise toys or colours into 'boys' or 'girls". One of the most upsetting things I saw recently was a little boy of about 3 being called "a little poof" by his father for wanting to play in a wendy house. These attitudes are entrenched in some, Im afraid, and can lead to the aggressive macho posturing of young men which can lead to violence, which we aren't short of.